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Mr. DANIELSON. You do not recall any changes, but you also do not know if there were no changes. Mr. BRESNAN. That is correct.

Mr. DANIELSON. Were you an officer of Teleprompter at the time the agreement was signed ?

Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, I was. Mr. DANIELSON. Were you at a policymaking level at Teleprompter at that time?

Mr. BRESNAN. No, sir.

Mr. DANIELSON. Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Teleprompter would have agreed to the so-called consent agreement, but for the threat that you reported, that you would get this, or you would get nothing?

Mr. Bresnan. To my knowledge neither Teleprompter nor anyone else at NCTA would have accepted that agreement, were it not for the threat; that was the feeling I got.

Mr. DANIELSON. Were you at the meeting of the NCTA people when it was reported ? Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, I was.

Mr. DANIELSON. And can you tell me whether your feeling, which I am going to describe as a negative feeling for point of reference; can you tell me whether that was shared, as far as you can tell, by others!

Mr. BRESNAN. As far as I can tell, sir, it was. It was a very, very gloomy meeting at which we were told we would have to accept something which we all knew was bad for our industry.

Mr. DANIELSON. Directing your attention, now, to the two charts on the side wall which your colleague pointed out a while ago, I note that the upper one depicts what I am going to call New England, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and up through to Maine. Portions of the map are in a dark gray, and portions in white.

It is my understanding that in the white area, the area that is circumscribed by a heavy dark, black line, is the primary viewing area of the New York City television broadcasting stations; am I right on that? Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DANIELSON. And beyond that heavy line there continue to be, in irregular formation, other white areas, reaching from upper New York back all the way, I guess, to the St. Lawrence River to Canada; down through New York, one leg going out to a lakeI can't name it.

Mr. PATTISON. Atlantic. [Laughter.]

Mr. DANIELSON. Another leg going down to the Pennsylvania southern end, again western boundary. Do I understand your testimony to be that those white areas are included within the potential viewing audience of the New York City television stations, in conjunction with their advertising rate schedule. Am I right, or wrong on that?

Mr. BRESNAN. You are right. . Mr. DANIELSON. I would like to ask a question, and i think it's really for Miss Da Costa. I understand Miss Da Costa is a professional advertising agency person; am I correct?

Miss Da Costa. Yes, sir.
Mr. DANIELSON. How long have you been so employed?
Miss Da Costa. More than I care to admit, about 30 years.
Mr. DANIELSON. Well, you started as a child, then. [Laughter.]

Miss Da Costa. Thank you.

Mr. DANIELSON. Anyway, does your work include the contracting for advertising through television stations by the clients of your advertising agency?

Miss Da Costa. Not directly, sir. I advise our buyers and planners of all media available to them to buy. I am not directly involved in buying.

Mr. DANIELSON. But that includes advice as to television audiences?

Miss Da Costa. Yes, that is my area of expertise, I am charged with media research at Ted Bates.

Mr. DANIELSOx. The Ted Bates Co., I'm pretty ignorant in that field; are they a pretty well-established firm? Miss Da Costa. Yes, they are the fifth largest agency in the country.

Mr. DANIELSON. Do they handle major clients, major industries, businesses?

Miss Da Costa. Yes, sir, many of them.
Mr. DANIELSON. Not Joe's Used Car Lot.
Miss Da Costa. All of our clients are national accounts.
Mr. DANIELSOX. I like Joe's U'sed Car Lot- [Laughter.]
You have expertise in big ones.
Miss Da Costa. All of our accounts are national accounts.

Mr. DaxiELSON. Then, the statement which I made-I wasn't too sure if I understand you correctly. Do you know of your own personal knowledge that in computing the advertising rates which are charged to these national accounts by the TV stations for their advertising, is the audience encompassed in these white areas in the charts included ?

Miss Da Costa. Yes, sir.
Mr. DANIELSON. I don't suppose you handle the California accounts.
Miss Da Costa. Vo, sir.

Mr. DANIELSON. There is a similar chart there, maybe the witness can explain. Where did you obtain these charts, what is the source of the charts?

Mr. BRESNAN. The Association of Independent Television Stations. Mr. DANIELSON. And can you tell me what that is?

Mr. BRESNAN. A group of broadcasting companies that are not affili. ated with network companies.

Mr. DANIELSON. And someone has simply copied these maps from their information.

Jr. BRESNAN. We have brochures that this Association of Broadcasters has put out.

Mr. DANIELSON. And they are blowups, are they?
Mr. Swon. Exactly.

Mr. DANIELSON. I'm not going to ask you whether you copied them, you might have a copyright problem. (Laughter.]

Anyway, that's really what they represent.
Mr. BRESNAX. Yes, sir.

Mr. DANIELSOy. I see that California and the Southwest are included; and do the same analogies of white areas and gray areas prevail there, as in New York?

Mr. BRESNAN. Yes. As a matter of fact, I would like to make one further point. Mr. Simon, would you find that line?

Mr. Simon. Here is the dark line, the primary viewing line again.
Mr. DANIELSON. And this is from San Francisco.
Mr. Simon. That's correct, San Francisco stations.

Mr. BRESNAN. The white area goes all the way up to Oregon, and east into Nevada.

Miss Da Costa advises me that, not only do the broadcasters from San Francisco claim this coverage--and therefore ultimately moners filter back to the copyright area-but she says also, that the syndicators will at the same time be selling programs in the Sacramento, Reno and Redding markets, also; they are selling them again to those markets. And what they are proposing to do now in the case of CATV, is to sell them a third time in many cases.

Mr. DANIELSOx. Now lastly, it's my understanding that the owner of a copyrightable item, let's say the film of Bambi, may sell the right to use it to, say, a Boston TV station for their regular broadcast.

Suppose that the same film has been sold by the copyright owner, leased, licensed, what have you, to a TV station in the city of New York for its use. And through cables they picked it up and disseminated the program within the city of Boston, let's say, a month in advance of the showing in the city of New York.

Does not this diminish the value of the Boston licensee in using the film?

Mr. BRESNAN. Sir, if the copyright owner-the owner of the product-didn't recognize when selling that product, in this case, the Bambi film to the New York station, didn't recognize that that signal would go up into the Boston area, he is a fool because the coverage area of these stations, as you will see when you examine the brochures that I am going to leave with you, is clearly depicted. This is no secret. It's no surprise-it shouldn't be a surprise because it's stated in the advertising literature how far out that station's signal goes because of CATV.

Mr. DANIELSON. OK. Are you, sir, or any of you in your group able to tell me, or do you have any expertise, how are the negotiations carried on between a copyright owner--the owner of Bambi, for? example--and the station?

I don't know anything about that. Do you advertising people do that kind of work?

Miss Da Costa. Well, generally the syndicator is the one that sells programming to individual stations within markets. They negotiate and take that into account, the number of homes that are delivered to that particular station and that particular market.

Mr. DANIELSON. I think we have a word of art here. You said "syndicators," are they the people who sell the films, and so forth

Miss Da Costa. Yes, sir.
Mr. DANIELSON [continuing]. To broadcasting stations?

Miss Da Costa. There is some company that does that, although there are some originating producers that do their own selling.

Mr. DANIELSON. But in that connection, the sale includes whatever is the copyright royalty, that is in the package.

Miss Da Costa. That is a total package, yes.

Mr. DANIELSON. Now, some of the Teleprompter stations originate their own programs, I am sure I heard you say that.

Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, sir.

Jr. DANIELSON. Now, in those instances you do pay royalties, do you, for the copyrighted materials that you use?

Mr. BRESNAN. Yes, and we agree with the principle of that.

Mr. DANIELSON. Now, do you negotiate with the copyright owner, or with one of those syndicators!

Mr. BRESNAN. We buy the program generally from a distributor of the program.

Mr. DANIELSON. Can you tell me if the word “distributor" as you use it is similar to "syndicator"?

Mr. BRESNAX. Yes.
Mr. DANIELSON. Thank you, that's all the questions I have.
Mr. KASTEN MEIER. The gentleman from California, Mr. Wiggins.

Mr. Wiggins. If I understand you correctly, when you are selling time to a large market, you can extract from an advertiser a greater fee because of his access to that market.

Do you have any data showing that the copyright owner shares in that?

Mr. BRESNAN. The copyright owner negotiates with the broadcaster for the fee which he will receive for the carriage of his program. The copyright owner has available to him the advertising brochures of the station, showing the coverage area.

I have no reason to believe that the copyright owner wouldn't take advantage of such material in his negotiations. I have never sat in on those negotiations, I'm not sure what goes on there.

Mr. Wl'IGGINS. Does anybody at the table have personal experience in this?

Miss Da Costa. I don't think that anyone can really determine what portion of the rate they are charging, if it's just a copyright, or just the time, or the use of the program. I think the syndicator establishes the rate that will include some copyright fees. And also, in negotiating with the station he will hopefully get what he feels the program is worth.

Mr. Wicgins. But at least you are representing to us as a fact that the negotiated fee is based upon the the total market to be served.

Miss Da Costa. That is taken into consideration, yes, sir.

Mr. Wiggins. Now, you have experience, Miss Da ('osta, with national and regional accounts. I gather your agency does not handle local advertisers.

Miss Da Costa. We have one that we call a local advertiser, the Chase Manhattan Bank.

Laughter.] Mr. Wiggins. Well, I was thinking more about Joe's Used Car Lot. (Laughter.]

Mr. Wiggins. It seems to me that local independents are constantly barraged by auto dealers selling their cars-I don't understand that a local used car lot is really appealing to those large market areas. My feeling is that such a local car dealer would be unwilling to pay for that kind of expanded coverage because it's beyond his normal service area.

If that is the case, isn't it likely that commercial operators similarly situated would be denied the market of their own, and would not be inclined to go to the owner of a copyrighted work and buy something that is shown in one of these isolated areas?

What I am trying to project to you very inartfully is that it seems to me there is a difference betweeen local advertising and regional and national advertising, and that to the extent that national advertisers blanket an area, they deny to a copyright owner the opportunity to sell his work to a local advertiser. Have I made that point clear?

Mr. RAILSBACK. Will the gentlemen yield?
Mr. WIGGINS. Yes.

Mr. RAILSBACK. Oak Park Savings and Loan carry ball games and they come into my area, and they come in with local advertising, or Koons.

Miss Da Costa. I'm not familiar with those.

Mr. RAILSBACK. His point is—if the gentleman will yield furtheryou may not always have a regional advertiser.

Miss DA COSTA. Let me just explain to you how that works, starting with the national advertiser. A national advertiser presumably has national distribution, and his product can be bought across the country. Therefore, any advertising that he buys in one market, or an accumulation of markets, his advertising is worth putting it on that station because his product is everywhere.

A regional advertiser has a similar situation within the region area that they have product distribution.

As far as the local, the truly local advertising that you are describe ing, sir, that advertiser feels, when he is investing money on a television station within his market that the medium is strong enough to get him customers, even though he pays a 10-percent premium for those homes that are not potentials for him.

Mr. WIGGINS. Well, perhaps that's so. Your illustration mentioned New York City and Oswego, I believe. I would think there is a possibility at least that a used car dealership in Oswego, which might otherwise be in the market to buy a movie, is not going to do so because that movie is being transmitted to New York City. And that to an extent it is true that a copyright owner is deprived of an opportunity to sell his product in Oswego.

Miss Da Costa. But if we examine hard research data that is available to us by county, where we can see the signals and stations that are being viewed by the homes in the county, we see that 10 percent of a county's homes views signals that are imported from as far away as New York. And consequently the potential for that local car distributor is 90 percent of the market.

Mr. WIGGINS. Well, I would like to be exposed to this hard data on which you base your conclusion. I realize the conclusion is stated in the testimony, but suppose that you worked out the figures in support of this and, if you have them, would make them available to the committee. Mr. Chairman, I would appreciate it.

Miss Da Costa. Sir, I did prepare a selected list of counties in which I looked at the actual viewing as it is reported by the Nielsen Co., which is a recognized research organization. This is the kind of information, if you will allow me to just mention it.

For example, in Oneida County, which is in the State of New York, we found that 3.4 percent of the households viewed the WNEW TV station in the course of a whole week.

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