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Mr. Baro. I will be glad to come back after lunch.
Mr. DANIEL . If the gentleman can come back-
Mr. Baroo. I will be very happy to come back.

Mr. KA IESMI.R. The sulmommittee will be in res for 13 minutes, until 1:45.

Wherrupon, at 1:30 p.m. & recies was taken until 1:33 p.m.]

Mr. KanNMEIER. The subcommittee will come to order for the rumption of our testimony today. When we recessed we were hearing from Mr. George Barro, who had submitted his testimony, and was in the portion of anticipating a question of mine, to the position of the Pennsylvania (able Television Aviation, No. 3, that copyright fees wowill be payable on the reception of microwaved signals.

Want are microwave signals, in common parlanie, so that we might und entand what that refers to

Mr. Barco. There are two types of signals in cable television systems rrived and transmitted to their suburban. One, what we receive normally over the air, and the other where we have to use mirowave oferations, where you bring a signal by long distance with a series of rrtransmitting of Himal, reaching t!ultimate de nation. Now, mar I explain that!


Mr. Baro. I said we take the positions, as Your Honor will re. member. First, anything of the air" should pay no copyrigit beause its a base digit of the American mitren to restrive the broadcast telpt on s'pals. Sumber two, WA 914 there is also a right to basic television niyeption, regardless of how it needed, by the public,

Saw,eien though in Ponnuplanatiere is no need to have anything P pt what were oft, air ananı part of Pennsluania tlene are willie mia! loro imit in by llo! rows from New York City, for 11. Ing. But they are first med for bair te lossi lon ir aption 11. intln war. Where We want it.

low, we thir:k there ar e communities in the Minist and For Wist vopret! Vaumont ott'ol in any NAPI livmor *r, but it In Aryal number of monuit . We think that the epile only popitiliato P ortalerson ispiton, remarit Je sum of #!.. it's often!r, or by 11,1. to ps, wito it tlir pient of prehitle in the futut it is "tast to toplote auf to linir

i i prin telesno restrition. Volwr they would be to 11:17 te thony netwo , thriv neiet.. ariketerad, statiilotation.

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M: Davierson. I think I understand your position, thank you.

Illinois, Mr. Rail
M: KANTINWHER. The gentleman from
M: RuiLBACK. No questions, thank you.
M: KATIAMHIER. The gentleman from New York, Mr. Pa
M. Putix. No questions.

KISIVYFIFR. The gentleman from California, Mr. Wir
W Wimie. Are the microwave signals beamed to a receive
Wo Burro. To a receiving antenna.
W WHAN. I mean to a specific customer?
Hi Bobu. Yes, the customer in this case being the CATV ?
M T:. Itnot from the air, that is.
Mf: Babo. Oh, no, you have to have a special pickup.
M: WIGGINX. In those systems in Pennsylvania that hav
Darpin cable casting, which is a word describing the origi

W BAR n. Lawal origination.

Mr. Wogins. Has there been difficulty in obtaining financ
Digit payments!

Mr. Barco. Mr. Chairman, that definition is an artificial one estas lished by the FCC. The amazing thing to us in the industry is t 3: they will give a license to a broadcaster to put a signal out in ta They can't restrict that licensed signal, where it goes. And then come and say to us, "Well, you can't carry it" even though we , out of the air. They say, “You can receive this one, but you cair ceive that one.” Frankly, we can't understand it at all.

And the other thing we have to keep in mind, Mr. Chairan. that, if in the same community, if you use a rooftop antenna, you 1: receive anything that is receivable off the air, like you do with te CATV system. But the FCC' comes and says to us, "If you have to buy television reception service from a cable company, you can't?r in but so many stations," but they make no such restriction on tu ; antennas, regardless of the number of signals received.

Mr. KASTEN MEIER. Mr. Barco, do the members of your assistirand it is a very old one in Pennsylvania-differ in terms of ther! acteristics, or types of programs, the type of transmitting tAT 17 involved in, than the members of the national association that is fied before!

Mr. Barco. No, generally not. I would say to you that from * personal knowledge, we have about 60 systems which dorable : which is local origination. Our system has been doing that for and we know a number of other systems who do the same thing

Mr. KASTENMFIER. Thank you. The gentleman from (al for Mr. Danielson.

Mr. DANIFLON. Thank von Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Barro. On cable casting for origination of pru. * you do not question that copyright fees should be paid on that is program.

Mr. Barco. Absolutely not. And we do pay on those we buy

Mr. DANIELSON. I just wondered whether you had any opin, na on that.

Mr. Barro. No, no quention.

Mr. DANIELSON. Under the formula that you come up #tiamo your three points, can you give me an estimate of how al: (UT suutens wonld be paving copyright, and how many wonlel monti

Mr. Baren. Jy recollection is that that we chevked by the VOTI Ofice, and the estimated about 750 stems would be

, right, that is if they brought it in by microwave bponit. copt ning

Mr. DANTISON. I understand. Well, 72 how many p*** gep there?

Mr. Baroo), Altogether around 3,10).
Mr. DAVIELMON, Ilont percent?

Jr. Buro. But lon must keep in minil. Corp an, that per cent of the top 10 Market, or m arket rather. hin muut * developed for (9.111.911 this is where the plant ll too." ** barnet! think that they are only to develop the pritet born in the distant * 111. br 1917. 1 11!,en the besoni tie banir toliv, con tres por otro # 11 to guari

of 10111mt", that in a'l bill on the toportrofit!.n wir 1" brrin a- l by !! TOHI1r, thirrbryllot

l anicorn to tlor primit oner. If he is 1. , lately typu Bent at zit it, then of cur rent thanh their don't lefogla 15 11.ant. But if le ha-n't been paid, it's only right that he lovite !

* * *1830 by reason of the fact that they are, or should ł

M: BAROSo. You see, those systems, of course, have tu
A mma the cable casting, No. 1, a locally originated pi

they have these other programs that they buy. The P? Akártplace and negotiate the price as broadcasters do. I a pmblems in that respect at all.

W: T ine. That's all.

W: KA-TIS YEUR, Thank you very much, Mr. Barco, 1
*antes barre today. I am sorry we kept you so long.

The prepared statement of George J. Barco, and the Penn
FinTers on sociation Policy Position follow:1


W ymanmembers of the subcommittee, I am George J. Barci

. Pa Pe the rant hy sears, I have endeavored to participate ac
$ougars in the triberations of the able television industry leaders

m ay ang pink it nationwide. During this time I have be ** A pident of spreral cable television companies, includir *** b inity in which I lire. Also, I have served as Gener *

sears of Pennsylrania Cable Television Association 1. be able television industry in Pennsylvania where * 1 * mas a commercial enterprise some 27 years ago

NET PS and greater percentage of the television view Wer t CATV serice than in any other state. fr** t id. I have been personally and directly acquainte

per potent of the ind'istry itself and have observed th *A

of others toward the industry. I have been conce yanari ularly during the last 10 years, that these views an

** ALT IST of government treatment accorded to t

** **c o a creat extent by a pervasive preoccupation, to be in with the technical and theoretical capabiliti *** , Ia pride brand telerision and communications services

porn nenas been hapesire to such an extent that the financial, te 134 Trairements for such an evolution have not been full

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o Inown as President). Yational Cable Talariston

*** o YCTA. 13 sente ending in 1972: Mo Conty mittee, 1972-1975; Member, NCTA Mun

Mr. DANIELSON. I think I understand your position, thank you, very much.

Mr. KA-77 NYYTIR. The wintleman from Illinois, Jr. Rail-back. Jir. RVD

Rh..loquations, thank you. Mr. KA-TEX MITR. 1 he gentleman from New York, Mr. Pattison. Mr. PATTI). No questions. Vr. Kinta SYR. The pointleman from California, Mr. Wirvins? Mr. Walis. Are the microwave signal banned to a ricever! Mr. BARCO. Toa meiling antenna. Mr. WHOIX. I mean ton sentir customer! Mr. Baroo. Yow, the anatomer in this can bring the ('IT\system. Mr. W16413. It not from the air, that is Mr. Baxte. Oh, no, you have to have a special pickup.

Mr. W'1001*. In the safens in Pennsylvania that have some f rience in cable conting, which is a word describing the origination, I think Mr. But, Lax'nl origination.

Mr. W10 , las there been difficulty in obtaining financing for thine stations by rrison of the fact that they arr, or should be liable for copyright payments!

Mr. Baro. Jo. You see, thome si fens, of cours, hair two types of programs, the gamble casting. No. 1, a leally or imated program: and then the last three other prognallis that they buy. They go on the marketplace and Indiate the ponder a broad anten do. Ile have had no problems in that rest at all.

Vr. W 100vs. That's all.

Mr. KASMIR. 'Ihark jou vois toebeh, Jr. Barro, for your testimony here today. I am wory we hept vel my long.

I The prepared statement of Grom Barc0), and the Pennsylvania (able Telmiston o'lation Polley Pixit 'on follow :

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rofatie .

T a pite

and praitial for enhan py

!!harp n

ters fr", mtand

***** and copyright owners make use of the public resource 17

payilent. In addition, the policy of the 1934 Communic
! ! *ldent posible distribution of broadcast services for the g
2: Wrilare of all citizens. As a consequence, there must accrue

BR! Il the public to utilize on an equal basis all signals rec
2 1: #Lattleer by conventional rooftop antenna or by cable televisi
1. *** the trips right owners choose to distribute their property by
in fe * Dü reasonable basis for any expectation by them tha

Let opinill the distribution as if they were providing for a p
13:1 'er, arena or hall,

fm ' L of view of the subscriber, it is incomprehensible that
.:Ders should depend on the accident of topography-or in
Santo!bor television viewer--whether he is living in a high are
*1'di at'rnina provides adequate reception or whether he lives

fiibe river where CATV service is required or desirable

cos,og television reception. These reception conditions can
"..*** !, et in a given community.

***** 911 taxtr principle of the Pennsylvania Position is that inas
11'i ar puside the means for equalizing the television reception op
* be ripart, thereby correcting a limitation or deficiency in broa
pono w ntime for at least basic television reception should not be

" O!by whatever means reception is secured.
is in the time allotted to me to further detail the philosoph
*...** lip the Pennsylvania Position, and I have, therefore, atta

y to this statement for the record.

or recognized, on the one hand, and, at the same time, the signifano television reception function being provided by CATV have been disetused 836 the real nature of the service toda y confused and distorted.

Time and again it has been acknowledged by the Federal ('L'L': " Commission, the broadcasters and the copyright on ners themselves that " master or community antenna television reception function which the (177 industry was established to perform, do not interfere with or eornad. *** the respective interests of broadcasters and copyright owners, beaux theat is supplementary to, and supportire of, broadcasting and moreire ! Me! the technical limitations of the technology. Regardless of all of the taArda'' hopes, dreams and promises for cable, it is a central fact that cable as 11 1 26 today represents only a concept of the ultimate cable communications tema and the implementation of that concept requires tremendous Iphin time and money with very (oniderable risks, Uniprtainties and unkt

The Pennsylvania Position on copyright places the television repting. LA of cable television in clear fors and places that function in propos *** TO both with relation to the subscribers it presently serve, and with fri, er the capabilities for cable to improve and equalize television reception 09**** ties for the public generally. The Pennsylvania Position als) in desirability of realizing the potential of cable television for program choice in part through microwaving of additional wixuais ' *** ing that this function is distinct from the television reception function, and *121 providing such service may be subject to reasonable copyrikot ja tik tie*

I must emphasize that the Pennsylvania Position represents no tel: 19 expdient response to the various propasures for the resolutioti of the 2** issue for the industry, nor does it represent an effort to limit or reduce the ri**** or amount of copyright payment motivated by business well-interest It is sented rather as the right, logical and equitable rewolution of the 1** pa je of the true nature of the functions concerned and the over all publie ib'r tri them.

The Pennsylvania Position was originally developed by the Pentel 12 Cable Television Association in 1989 and reviewed and retired by it in Vof 1975 (with much time and consideration being given to the i** 534 base of Association membership in both instances). Horrer, its adrese ir not limited to Pennsylvania, for it has wide acceptance acre the nat1001

It is no secret that there is a fundamental and wrious division in the 1.18** on the issue of copyright payment. The Pennsylvania Position in recy; sents the views of a substantial segment of the industry that is p ot Tirinciple to the concept of across the board" (perisht libility, and party Copyright liability for television reception of siglials retired off the air

The other substantial segment of the industry has been wid11.6 aid (fler, to agree to payment of copyright fees across the band's n . , an asortment of influences, including the appeal of an ex*1.rnt ; il. thie prvure for corrikht payment, the damage rate hope that 14. a (** 11 ** will csokie Nome n iline from the Federal ('ommunion!10 ( **, * . * dirution of relaunx its very restrictive regulations of CAM: and itv 1 2 tion that such payment from the existing industry will be the means of " ** the availability of mi ruwaved wiznal thought to be a prenas,'p four erunomie viability of cable feletinjon for the large citiem and the ear

in callons industry of the future. Mithoukh (TA still othmallr adheres to the views of this

s t ! Its is 1 in this **rt bias *11 seriously 90101d and relevant al. 1 Feb

aty, the Pennsylvania Position so far as payment of copyrig!

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ilmer.cht fpes should be payable for television reception of o
a martires of the total number involved.

t fepa shuld be payable for basic television reception

air or lig microwave. While we have stated that basic
**8.", Hitlude the national networks, three independent telev

H P anal television station, we recognize that there is
$** * njan as to what basic television reception should incl

would le payable on the reception of microwave
Hop revired for basic television reception in (2) above) at

*O of WP front per microwaved channel of the gross rece
De Virtuan only.
WOODWR in the Pennsylvania Position, I should mention ti

favoring the Pennsylvania Position have suggested
du ****.. kes muld be based on the fee schedule in H.R. 2223.

le manier of distant signals microwared as the numerato
a ls Tim as the denominator. Thus, if a system carried at

bi bio Were microwaved and subject to copyright pa
att -tenths of the fee schedule.
*** ual puern emphasized in the Pennsylvania Posit

*** wit offert a confirmation of the present FCC regula
*** ins Fup example, the FCC definition of so-called "di

8 . tas uttle relation to actual reception conditions |
** !and the application of these artificial and arbit
pesan baharrawonable, unfair and discriminatory treatment for
i s, tre parned that the Pennsylvania Position mar i
... 4. lina pytlent for appright owners, I submit that
**tre of the popyright issue is not determined by

Trabt fasturnt tut by whether or not there is a p

tr i fe, the pyright owners themselves over the
Ne r y cutim is not with the existing industry o
**1,* tre ft bont in the future of the industry in the 89

!, and X TA statistics establish, that the
to y botinking in antional television signals by mici

r tsfiyrighted programs for local origination.
31 ** est pronine for the pay cable market, program
** $t versijos right owners. In short, the copyright on
, Uhe soi* aries of tremendous gain from the increase

Hipoter of NTA haie inter**** in telesinio broad '11 ALIG
11 which are to some extent (learly in av.flat with (ATV tinata *, -
in Inloopbon that the motion of Verloofsrixkat la* been dedimiei * &r
atid iniuriant tits interni dalls today.
( 12 ur of the el. lal of Ise d:

In talt me lutute and

1 hods are either draftra r ution for a lot or baie title','* oposition to the E U Intian of uur.xht itu.t * arrun tır tu!

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want to

print a turist i furu111 on the tertitrat facts and minu ..**.

The broadcasters and copyright owners make use of the pullie source of the airwases without I muent. In addition, the policy of the 12t (onlithunic.itions .1.4 the west mibie distribution of bradenst write for the kennd Rent and welfare of mil (tits. As a conext, there must artrue a fun dail falai taht in the public to size of ata rruallis all in Trivable oft ile air wtsetter by fubirlonal rooftop ante un or by cable telesinion

X murtle (uparikh ** neribotol tribute their prorts by broadCasi* thotre in no tamanho d n for 111) at100 by lsriu tluat they t id «uttrul or limit tla distribution 4* if they were providing for a jerform. at. inflrater, are or liall.

statlar sint of 1** of the sun river, it is incomprehensible that linbility to u kht fr should defund on the air ident of t rains or in the real life want of the termin Wer whether he is living in a high area where A 1. rtoflertal atafalva fotode ale, late respon or a littler he lines belind the line of avots the riser where (

in rurd or desirable to pro

A rrating Ir principle of the l'innspluania Intimn is that inasmuch as (il can provide the means for realizing the tripiston ruption opportunity for mil the leurs therely wroting a limitation or deficiency in hr den ting terton T, w for at least Imall ele teleb rupland would not be subject ti pright, tyy rir neats repoflow wird

I am unable in the time allotted to me to fur:her detall the philowahl al and final me for that sini litt and I have, therefore, attached the I',f get in fuite this stafetest for the round

In summary, the inner ivania Hositi s far a payment of cup right fees in

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