INVENTORY REPORT FILED WITH COMMITTEE

Mr. INK. The personnel is on the operating side and, Mr. Chairman, we would be happy to provide the committee with a copy of the inventory which does break these costs out for you not only in total but by agency, and for each of the last 3 years.1

RELIABILITY OF ADPE COSTS

Chairman PROXMIRE. Are you quite confident of this $6 billion upper limit? Would you rule out the possibility that it could be up as high as $10 billion spent in ADPE?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. If, in addition to our definition of ADPE, you add computers used for any purpose both by the Government and the contractors I certainly would agree.

Mr. Ink mentioned, as one of the items of cost the Comptroller General apparently included in his figure, the grant program. There are many instances in which the Government makes a grant to a university for various and sundry purposes associated with computer use. When a university acquires a computer it is used in the educational process and/or the administration of the university. Such computers are university property and are not included in our inventory. As a matter of fact, the extension beyond the kind of computers currently included in our inventory was written out of the original Public Law 89-306.

Chairman PROXMIRE. I am not sure I follow. If you procure a computer for MIT, for example, to be used at MIT in connection with some Government work and they use it for educational work you don't

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No; if we procure the computer it is required to be in the Government inventory. If we make a grant to the university to help them

Charman PROXMIRE. And in the process of a contract they procure the computer.

GOVERNMENT-OWNED ADPE ONLY INCLUDED IN INVENTORY

Mr. INK. Yes; the Government-owned equipment, Governmentowned computers, are in the inventory.

Chairman PROXMIRE. You have given me the figure on that, as I understand it, the annual cost of $1.9 billion.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes.

Mr. INK. But he is talking, for example, about a grant going to a university or to a city or to a State which may be for the purpose of carrying out an urban renewal program. They may use a computer in the process of carrying that out and there may be computer costs. It is not a Government-owned computer, and we do not have a system for reporting in the value of that equipment or the operating costs.

85 PERCENT OF ADPE COSTS FOR DOD, AEC AND SPACE

Chairman PROXMIRE. How much of the total outlays for ADP can be attributed to DOD, AEC, and Space?

1 A copy of the inventory may be found in the committee room files.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is in the inventory and it is about 85percent.

Chairman PROXMIRE. How much for DOD, 62 percent?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is approximate.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Would that be correct for the costs, too?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. INK. Again that is in the listing.

Chairman PRCXMIRE. How much again for Atomic Energy?

Mr. INK. It is $156 million out of that total.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Then how much for Space?

Mr. INK. By coincidence $158 million.

Chairman PROXMIRE. So it is more for Space than Atomic Energy; you have got the figures the other way.

ADPE INCLUDED AND OMITTED FROM DOD FIGURES

What types of ADPE are covered and what types are not covered in your figures for the Department of Defense?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In the inventory figures all general-purpose ADPE of the type we are discussing are included.

The cost figures do not include operating costs where a computer is used in the integral operation of communications systems, control systems, and so forth.

WEAPONS' SYSTEMS ADPE NOT INCLUDED

Chairman PROXMIRE. For example, each P-3 aircraft used by the Navy for antisubmarine warfare has the equivalent of a generalpurpose computer. Are the costs of this computer included in your costs of DOD?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir.

GENERAL-PURPOSE ADPE ON SHIPS ARE INCLUDED

Chairman PROXMIRE. How about ADPE for ships and aircraft? Mr. CUNNINGHAM. ADPE of the general-purpose category on ships is included in the inventory. The computer that you mentioned I am not familiar with. It may be similar to some kind of a general-purposetype computer, but it is built for a specific function, and those computers are a part of the aircraft program, not a part of the ADPE management program.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Why not?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. There is little or no utility for it once you take it away from the basic purpose for which it is used. We have tried over a period of years and there are studies on the record to determine the economics of applying equipment designed for a particular military purpose to a nonmilitary use and the economic factors make it impractical.

Chairman PROXMIRE. I am not worried about that. You see, what concerns me is I want to know how much we are paying for computers. You keep telling us about general-purpose computers. I want to know if you are including the computers that are used for defense, military purposes.

MILITARY PROCESS COMPUTERS OMITTED

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am not including computers designed for military process.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Then it could be as high as $10 billion if we include all of the computers, couldn't it, including military purposes? Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I would hesitate to make a guess.

Chairman PROXMIRE. You just don't know.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Chairman PROXMIRE. But you wouldn't say it wouldn't be that high, you wouldn't deny it, you just cannot estimate it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. With the current cost of aircraft, I wouldn't quarrel with it, no, not from that point of view.

Chairman PROXMIRE. So the figures you have given us do not relate to the operational computers used for military purposes by aircraft, and for many other purposes by the military?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In a physical weapon, yes.
Chairman PROXMIRE. In a physical weapon.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. On the other hand, where we use ADPE or the general-purpose type in the control of forces such as in the command post such computers are included in the inventory. If the command post went out of business or if it were upgraded it would be perfectly possible for DOD or GSA to take that computer, possibly with some difficulty but no major problem, and apply it to another Government requirement.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Is there no place we can-I suppose we can with the Defense Department when they come up this afternoon, but wouldn't the Bureau of the Budget have any notion, any feeling of responsibility for finding out how much we are spending?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. The Defense Department may have some figures on computers that are in the military systems. The fact that they are not automatic data processing equipment, the fact they are not interchangeable, the fact we can't do anything else with them, while they are in the weapon, and it is very difficult to find anything to do with them when they come out of the weapon, has kept them excluded from any consideration in the general category of ADPE.

Mr. INK. There is no sharing potential. The utilization is buried, is a part of a factor of the utilization of the weapons system itself. Chairman PROXMIRE. How about the computers on a spaceship like the Apollo program?

Mr. INK. That would not be included.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is right.

Chairman PROXMIRE. But would it be included or excluded-you say the same.

Mr. INK. It would be excluded.

Chairman PROXMIRE. The same as on an aircraft.

Mr. INK. I am in error.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It would be excluded.

Mr. INK. No; he said, equipment in the Apollo would be excluded, that is right.

Chairman PROXMIRE. Well, now do you have any idea how much is involved in those kinds of computers?

Mr. INK. No, I don't.

Chairman PROX MIRE. Atomic Energy Commission, are there any similar operational computers that are not general purpose that would be also outside of your inventory?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I don't know of any in the Atomic Energy Commission. There are computers associated with the various atomic energy devices such as bevatrons, acceletrons, and so forth. They are included in the inventory because in an entirely different environment, they can be used in general-purpose computers.

Chairman PROXMIRE. So you can't really tell us what the Government is spending for computers. You don't know, and if you don't know I guess nobody knows. You are the only ones who would have the overall view.

Mr. INK. Yes, sir; we do not have a figure on those operational. the computers that are part of those operational systems.

Now, I want to make one thing clear, with respect to NASA, the computers that are on the ground, that are involved in the tracking and all that sort of thing are, of course, included in the inventory and what you are talking about is just what is in the Apollo spaceship itself. That is the only thing that is excluded which, I think, is an extremely small part of the NASA inventory. With respect to the Defense Department

Chairman PROXMIRE. No. Those spaceships are fantastically expensive and I am sure in the military part of it, I am not sure, I would speculate, it might be a great deal more.

Mr. INK. I think that is correct, Mr. Chairman. I think on the military side

Chairman PROXMIRE. It is excluded.

Mr. INK (continuing). This would represent a much more sizable grouping.

Chairman PROXMIRE. My time is up.
Mr. Brown?

HISTORY OF GOVERNMENT PARTICIPATION IN USE OF ADPE

Representative BROWN. Mr. Ink, I am interested in the history of Government use of computers. When were the first automatic data processing computers purchased by the Government or when did we start in the program of computerizing for the Government?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. In 1951 the first computer was delivered to the Census Bureau.

Mr. INK. Some of the early computers were actually built in Government laboratories.

Representative BROWN. By Government personnel?

Mr. INK. More often many of them by contractor personnel in Government-owned and Government-operated facilities, such as the weapons area. The Atomic Energy Commission, for example, has what we call the GOCO kind of operation, but solely at Government

expense.

Representative BROWN. When did the acquisition or purchase of computers begin in earnest, when did it really pick up?

Mr. INK. Well, it moved along gradually increasing in the late 1950's.

Representative BROWN. Do you have a list or a figure of annual exexpenditures?

GROWTH IN USE OF COMPUTERS

Mr. INK. We have a table which again is in this inventory we are providing to the committee that shows the growth and number of computers, and in 1959, it goes back to 1959, it shows 403 at that time.

Representative BROWN. SO 1959 we had 403 computers. Do you have a figure, a cost figure?

Mr. INK. I had better go to 1960 then because that is the first year that this table shows the cost-1960, 581 computers, and the cost as $541 million.

Representative BROWN. I want to be sure I know what we are talking

about.

Mr. INK. Yes, sir.

Representative BROWN. Is that 581 computers purchased that year, or is that 581 computers in inventory?

Mr. INK. No, sir; that is the number in inventory.

Representative BROWN. Is the $541 million the expenditure that year or the value of the inventory?

Mr. INK. Well, that is the expenditures for that year.
Representative BROWN. For that year?

Mr. INK. Yes, sir.

Representative BROWN. This will be helpful. Go ahead.

Mr. INK. And then that increased in a relatively steady growth until 1969 which are the last full figures, we have the number of 4,666 computers.

Representative BROWN. What about the growth in expenditures, annual expenditures?

Mr. INK. In 1969, the same year, $1,938 million.

Representative BROWN. Can you give me 1963 and 1966, just to give me some other figures?

Mr. INK. In 1963, first, with respect to numbers of computers, 1,326, and in 1966 the numbers were 3,007. With respect to total costs 1963, the table shows $785 million, and 1966 shows $1,284 million. You can see from the chart when it is charted out, it is a relatively even increase over that period.

Representative BROWN. The figures which you give about the distribution of the Federal inventory according to supplier fascinate me. IBM supplied 28.1 percent of all Government computers, but supplied 57.7 percent of all computers nationally.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is what IBM supplied out of the national

census.

Mr. INK. Yes; in other words, of those in the inventory, this is

correct.

Representative BROWN. What inventory are we talking about? Are we talking about the inventory of computers in the various departments exclusive of these other categories such as the aircraft and the ship computers and so forth?

Mr. INK. Exclusive of those operational systems, that is right, and that matches up with the totals that are in this document.

Representative BROWN. But the 1969 total of 4,666 computers, is that

a total

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is a hundred percent of the Federal inven

tory, sir.