The CHAIRMAN. Does that mean that we are going to be in those trials for a long time yet?

Colonel DUBBELDE. No, sir; I can give you the terminal dates. There are four groups remaining to be completed. I have just given you the information on Farben. On the other three, in the Ministries case the prosecution is completed; the defense only began this week; the evidence probably will not be completed until September.

In the Krupp case, the evidence is to be completed in July; arguments in July; and decision in August.

In the Generals case, the evidence is to be in early in July; arguments to end in July; and the decision in August.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How large a personnel do we maintain in Germany now in connection with the war crimes trials?

Colonel DUBBELDE. Starting with the month of June, there are 454. In July we expect to have 339; August, 228; September, 129; October, 76; and closing out in November with 53.

Those people, of course, will be there to clean up all of the records and things of that sort, because, as the plan goes, the last trials should be closed in September.

That amounts, in man-years, to 60.04 people if employed throughout the entire year.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. So that, according to that program, by November all American personnel in connection with the Nuremberg trials or the denazification trials would be brought back home?

NUMBER OF CIVILIAN PERSONNEL ESTIMATED FOR GERMANY FOR 1949

Colonel DUBBELDE. That is correct. I would like to say this in that connection: When our schedules for 1949 were prepared, it was then assumed that the trials would be completed by the 30th of June; consequently our figures of 3,500 people do not make any provision for those people in 1949. It will be necessary, therefore, for us to absorb this group. Their salaries will add up to $306,461. In other words, we have to absorb that much within our present submitted program, because they were not accounted for.

I have a spread sheet here which will indicate the break-down of the employment of our entire scheduled people. I have bulked the personnel below CAF-9 into one column, simply because it made too large a sheet, but it gives the spread sheet to show the utilization of the personnel.

Our schedules start out-the total shows 3.695. One hundred and fifty-five are in connection with the schools for American dependent. children; 40 will be used in the office commonly referred to as G-5, in Frankfurt, who devote their work to the adoption of civil affairs agreements with adjacent powers and whatever work is necessary in connection with the IRO activity. That leaves 3,500 planned for 1949 in the office of the military government.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Which compares with what figure in 1948? Colonel DUBBELDE. You will have to add both the military and civilian together to get the comparable figure.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You said you are contemplating 3,500 of them for 1949.

Colonel DUBBELDE. Yes, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the comparable figure for the current year?

Colonel BINNS. In 1948 the estimate was 5,034.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You mean the estimate as of today or the original estimate?

Colonel BINNS. The original estimate was 5,034.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the estimate now?

Colonel BINNS. The estimate now is they are within a very few of what is shown here.

The CHAIRMAN. About 3,700?

Colonel BINNS. 3,695 spaces.

Colonel DUBBELDE. That is only civilians, and we are still using a large number and did all through 1948 use a large number of military. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How does that figure compare with the 3,500? Colonel DUBBELDE. It is comparable so far as dollars are concerned, but it is not comparable so far as the utilization of personnel is concerned, the people on duty. You have to add the military.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is there any military to be added to that?
Colonel DUBBELDE. No, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You mean there is no military in 1949?
Colonel DUBBELDE. There is no military in 1949.

The CHAIRMAN. The original cash estimate was how much?
Colonel BINNS. For 1948, it was approximately $25,000,000.
The CHAIRMAN. And you are now down to 3,600?

Colonel BINNS. That is a figure of $18,300,000. That is the fiscal year 1949.

The CHAIRMAN. How much money did you save out of the $25,000,000?

Colonel BINNS. $4,088,291.

The CHAIRMAN. What was your average employment; would you have any idea of that?

Colonel DUBBELDE. In the neighborhood of 3,270 would probably be a good average figure.

The CHAIRMAN. 3,270 would be the average?
Colonel DUBBELDE. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. And you have 3,600 now?

Colonel DUBBELDE. That is right. There is one reason for that variation. We employed a considerable number that are in this wage scale of personnel which drew an average salary of $1,400. Those people are planned to phase out and are phasing out now, and the average salary then goes above $4,000 a year per person. They were clerical people.

The CHAIRMAN. They were indigenous?

Colonel DUBBELDE. No, sir; they were British, Belgian, Dutch, and Swiss. By agreement between EUCOM headquarters and these governments, in order that we would not upset the prevailing wage scales in their home countries, we agreed on a fixed salary for the continental wage-scale personnel, and they are away below.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean they are not included in the 3,200? Colonel DUBBELDE. They are included in the 3,200, but the pay

scale is low.

The CHAIRMAN. Why would your average employment be more now than it was during the year?

Colonel DUBBELDE. If we add the military spaces, then the figure goes up to 4,918.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; but you have 3,695 now, and you say the average has been 3,270.

Colonel DUBBELDE. That is civilian spaces.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I thought the 3,695 was.

Colonel DUBBELDE. It is. We look at it in this way: We utilize over-all manpower in 1948 4,918 and plan to use 3,500 in 1949. For dollar comparisons you have to compare 3,270 with the dollar value that it costs to buy 3,695.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions on the German personnel?

Mr. STEFAN. You are figuring in 1949 fiscal year to have a total American personnel of 3,500?

Colonel DUBBELDE. In the military government operation.

EMPLOYMENT OF ALIENS IN GERMANY

Mr. STEFAN. How many aliens?
Colonel DUBBELDE. Germans?

Mr. STEFAN. Yes.

Colonel DUBBELDE. 8,000 at the present time.
Mr. STEFAN. What are you asking for 1949?

Colonel DUBBELDE. The plan for 1949 is 8,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the present picture; how many aliens do you have now in addition to the 3,695 Americans? Colonel DUBBELDE. I will get that for you.

Mr. STEFAN. This is the over-all figure in Germany?

Colonel DUBBELDE. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEFAN. Under these appropriations?

Colonel DUBBELDE. That is correct-out of these appropriations in Germany.

Mr. STEFAN. 3,500 American personnel and 8,000 aliens?

Colonel DUBBELDE. For the military government. In addition to that, you have 155 teachers in the American dependent-children schools. Mr. STEFAN. I thought they were in the 3,500.

Colonel DUBBELDE. No, sir. There are 155 teachers; there are 40 in EUCOM headquarters in connection with the displaced-persons program and handling civil-affairs agreements.

Mr. STEFAN. Do not the IRO take care of that?

Colonel DUBBELDE. The military is still responsible for a certain amount of logistic support in reference to civil-affairs agreements, such as hauling supplies and that sort of thing. The agreements that are made in the general housekeeping of those people are still an Army responsibility.

Mr. STEFAN. There are how many in that?

Colonel DUBBELDE. There are 40 civilian spaces.

Mr. STEFAN. Forty DP's?

Colonel DUBBELDE. No; 40 civilian spaces.

Mr. STEFAN. In the DP's?

Colonel DUBBELDE. In the DP's, but they do not handle displaced persons alone. In addition to that, there are what are called civilaffairs agreements. Those agreements deal with the relationships of personnel in foreign countries surrounding Germany.

Mr. STEFAN. In the DP camps they do something else?
Colonel DUBBELDE. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEFAN. Those 40 are in addition to the 155?

Colonel DUBBELDE. There are three categories. There are 3,500 military in that, 155 teachers, and 40 civilian spaces, making a total in Germany of 3,695. The schedule in the estimates will show 3,707. That is a difference of 12. Those people are back here in Washington. Mr. STEFAN. There are 3,695 Americans

Colonel DUBBELDE. Correct.

Mr. STEFAN. And 8,000 aliens?

Colonel DUBBELDE. 8,000 Germans.

Colonel BINNS. The 12 people in the difference are here in Washington. It has been necessary to get those 12 people to be the liaison link between ERP, the Department of the Army, and General Clay. They are the representatives of General Clay here for ERP.

Colonel DUBBELDE. You asked what the strength was today, Mr. Wigglesworth.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I am trying to get a comparison. You told us for 1949 you are asking for 3,695 Americans and 8,000 aliens.

Colonel DUBBELDE. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. No military?

Colonel DUBBELDE. No military.

COMPARISON OF PRESENT CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT IN GERMANY WITH ESTIMATE FOR 1949

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How does that compare with the 1948 picture? Colonel DUBBELDE. At the present time we have 8,668 Germans and a total of 4,900 over-all, and the 3,270 are civilians, and 1,648 are military.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That means, then, you are going to increase your civilian staff and decrease the military?

Colonel DUBBELDE. I can tell you how that comes about. The liaison and security detachments were entirely military, and in proceeding with the civilianization program those people who can qualify under the screening tests will be retained, and as cut-backs in other offices come about they will replace those people and step up the liaison security group. The reduction in the liaison security group is one of the reasons why we can reduce the over-all force. There is about a 50percent cut.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you mean you contemplate transferring 425 persons now classified as military to the civilian roll?

LIAISON SECURITY DETACHMENTS

Colonel DUBBELDE. Yes, sir; that is correct. Those positions will be civilianized. Those liaison security detachments will be reduced by 50 percent from what they are today, giving them larger areas. The CHAIRMAN. Why do you need to have security detachments; why cannot the Germans do their own policing?

Čolonel DUBBELDE. This is not a police function, Mr. Taber. These are units that are little sounding boards in the local communities that sense the pulse of the population, for one thing; they contact the agricultural analysis group of security personnel. In other words, when

they want an agricultural test analysis, they send a special team through. They do that in each landkreis, in every little county, and now they are going to give them two or three landkreis, depending on the geographical area.

You have the same situation in the United States, as a matter of fact; you have agricultural personnel all over the country, and that is exactly the kind of function these people do.

In addition to that, they have to report on the general pulse and sentiment of the people, because they live with the German people and in the little local gatherings they talk with them day in and day out.

The British do that far more than we do. That is one reason why the British show 10,000 as against our 3,500; they employ 3,500, practically, on these liaison security tests. We are trying to get those people to come down like we do, and meetings are going on all the time. The CHAIRMAN. And they won't come down as long as we are paying the bill.

Mr. VOORHEES. We do not pay that bill.

The CHAIRMAN. Not directly, but indirectly.

Mr. VOORHEES. I would like to say those liaison security detachments are of very great value in our agricultural program. It would be impossible to keep any real information as to what the Germans are doing otherwise.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean the Germans would not keep any check. that they are not interested enough in their own recovery to do that?

Mr. VOORHEES. We need to check what the amounts are. There is too much motivation for the Germans to underestimate, so that they can keep some of it for the black market, and we have to keep some small American group to keep a check on them. I really believe it would be economical to have more, but certainly we do need this very badly. They perform a very valuable function, I think.

Colonel DUBBELDE. That difference in the figures of American valuation of German production of 10,000 and 15 compared with the German investment of 10,000 and 12 gives you an idea of the kind of work those people do.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions on personnel?
Mr. STEFAN. What is the total request for funds for personnel?
Colonel BINNS. $18,313,393.

Mr. STEFAN. That is for the over-all employment?

Colonel DUBBELDE. In Germany or on behalf of Germany.
The CHAIRMAN. The next is travel of civilian employees.

FOREIGN EXPERTS AND SPECIALISTS, AND FOREIGN STUDENTS

Colonel BINNS. Prior to going into that, there is a portion of this project 410 we are speaking of which I wish to bring to the specific attention of the committee.

The last two items on page 1250 of the justifications, "Foreign experts and specialists" and "Foreign students," are put under this project. We are advised by the expert cultural people throughout the country that we can get, that one of the greatest ways we can get people of the world together and exchange ideas is by an exchange of students. There is no money requested here for tuition of such students, only for their maintenance. The colleges will furnish the scholarships free.