Mr. NORTHRUP. To the best of my knowledge, I think the proper way to answer your question is that these estimates of exports or estimates of availabilities for all of these European countries are intended to include the availabilities for all of the population in those countries, no matter who pays for it.

Mr. CASE. I would think so. I do not know how otherwise you could figure it, because part of it is supplied indigenously.

Mr. NORTHRUP. That is right; and you could not break it apart in the way you are suggesting, I am afraid.

GRAIN REQUIREMENTS FOR BELGIUM AND LUXEMBURG

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. For Belgium and Luxemburg, you propose 600,000 metric tons import under ECA to give them an availability in 1948-49 of 3,060,000 tons compared to 4,059,000 prewar and 2,683,000 this year.

What is the population of Belgium?

Mr. NORTHRUP. They reported last year at the Paris Conference that the population of Belgium was 8.4 million in 1947 and to that must be added, for Luxemburg, another 300,000. That would be 8.7 million in 1947 for those two countries. That is from data supplied by the Europeans at the Paris Conference on populations. Mr. STEFAN. Is there any corn in here at all?

Mr. DODD. There could be some corn in that total, but I would not have the least idea how much it would be. It would depend on the size of the crop and the availability of other grains. That is true, also, of grain sorghums and barley.

GRAIN REQUIREMENT FOR DENMARK

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. For Denmark, the imports under ECA are 177,800 metric tons, and you give an available supply of 4,167,000 for 1948-49, or about 200,000 less than prewar and about 800,000 more than in the present year.

What is the population of Denmark?

Mr. NORTHRUP. Denmark's population in 1947 is given as 4.2 million, which, incidentally, is about a half million more than prewar.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Why do you need 4,167,000 metric tons for a population of 4,000,000 in Denmark when you have only 3,000,000 metric tons for a population double that in Belgium and Luxemburg? Mr. NORTHRUP. On most of those questions, I am sure Dr. Fitzgerald could talk to this point better than I can, but you have to take into account a lot of things over there-other kinds of food, the livestock, and the population; undoubtedly these figures reflect those differences.

Dr. FITZGERALD. If I may comment on that—

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I wish you would.

Dr. FITZGERALD. Mr. Northrup has mentioned the principal difference that is, the level of livestock compared to the populations in the two countries. Denmark has approximately twice as many hogs as Belgium, and the major portion of this 4,167,000 ton supply of total grains is for livestock feeding.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It seems very much out of line mathematically, both as to Austria and Belgium.

Mr. NITZE. The basis of the Danish economy is the livestock population, and unless they get these feed stocks, Denmark's entire economy will be upset.

GRAIN REQUIREMENTS FOR FRANCE

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. For France you have 14,079,000 tons of exports, with a total availability of 15,097,000 in 1948-49 compared with a prewar figure of 16,100,000 and a figure of 11,334,000 today. The population of France is about what?

Mr. NORTHRUP. France, in 1947, reported to us 41.4 million.

Mr. NITZE. May I comment there that the column headed "ECA shipments financed" includes shipments to both the mother country and to the dependent overseas territories in every instance, while in the next column it refers only to the other country. That does not make an important difference in most instances, but in one or two instances it does. In this particular case there are fairly large shipments to dependent overseas territories.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You mean, of the 14,079,000, a large part goes to the dependent overseas colonies?

Mr. NITZE. That is correct.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. France is stepping up her own production about 500,000 metric tons over last year?

Mr. NORTHRUP. That is correct-about 5,000,000.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Yes; 5,000,000.

Mr. NITZE. As a matter of fact, the amount going to the dependent overseas territories of France is 650,000 tons.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Those figures on the dependencies are not included in the import column, either for prewar or for 1947-48? Mr. NITZE. They are not.

Mr. NORTHRUP. We can give that to you where there are discrepancies, I know.

Mr. NITZE. It was impossible to get together the last four columns with respect to the dependent overseas territories.

GRAIN REQUIREMENTS FOR GREECE

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. For Greece you contemplate imports of 244,500 metric tons against a total availability of 2,121,000 compared with a prewar of 1,983,000 and this year 1,740,000.

Mr. NORTHRUP. That is right.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What is the population of Greece?

Mr. NORTHRUP. Greece, in 1947, was 7.6 million.

Mr. WiggleSWORTH. The domestic production in Greece is 400,000 tons?

Mr. NORTHRUP. But still slightly below prewar.

GRAIN REQUIREMENTS FOR ICELAND

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. For Iceland you contemplate imports of 12,000 tons against a total available supply of 1948-49 of 15,000, no prewar supply indicated, and some 15,000 tons available in the current fiscal

year.

Mr. NORTHRUP. This projects imports in there just like in the past

year.

Mr. STEFAN. Do you have the population there?

Mr. NORTHRUP. Iceland has an estimated population of 100,000. Mr. NITZE. These figures are only to the nearest 100,000, but, as I remember it, the population is in excess of 100,000 but less than 150,000.

Mr. Chairman, Mr. Fitzgerald has the estimated over-all caloric intake of each country, which I think includes all varieties of foods and would give you the relative feeding level of each one of the countries, and I think that would give you the information which you are looking for.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That includes all of the various items?

Mr. NITZE. It includes all of the various items and makes allowance for livestock feeding and various other factors in each country. I think it will give you the end result.

ESTIMATED CALORIC INTAKE BY COUNTRIES, 1948-49

Dr. FITZGERALD. I have a table here of the estimated caloric intake for 1948-49 based upon the physical data in the tables that are before you, which I can read to you and then comment on briefly, if that will be helpful to the committee.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Suppose, Doctor, you give us those figures by countries, starting with Austria.

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 2,850; estimated for 1948-49, 2,700.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Belgium-Luxemburg?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 2,800; the same for 1948-49.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Denmark?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 3,200; 1948-49, 3,100.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. France?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 2,800; 1948-49, 2,750.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Greece?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand four hundred and fifty for both periods.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Iceland?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Three thousand for both periods.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Ireland?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 3,150 and 3,200 for 1948-49.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Italy?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand five hundred and fifty and two thousand three hundred.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. The Netherlands?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand eight hundred and fifty for both periods?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Norway?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand nine hundred; and two thousand eight hundred and fifty.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Portugal?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand three hundred both periods.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Sweden?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Three thousand both periods.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Switzerland?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Three thousand one hundred and fifty prewar and two thousand nine hundred and fifty, 1948-49.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Turkey?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Two thousand five hundred for both periods.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. United Kingdom?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Three thousand one hundred prewar; three thousand and fifty, 1948–49.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Western Germany?

Dr. FITZGERALD. How is that in your table, sir? Is that by zones? Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Yes, bizone, French and Saar.

Mr. NORTHRUP. Altogether.

Dr. FITZGERALD. Prewar, 2,850, but that includes the Soviet zone. There was no way to separate it. That is all prewar Germany. For 1948-49, 2,550.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is there some comment you said you wanted to make on these figures?

Dr. FITZGERALD. There is, if I may, sir. These caloric intake figures compare, in my opinion, rather favorably with prewar. But there are two important observations to be made with respect to them, sir. In the first instance, this is an average for all persons. In general we are satisfied that the producers, the farmers in these countries are eating as well as they were prewar, perhaps a little better. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Right now?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Right now; which means that the folks in the urban areas are taking the entire brunt of the lower supplies. So that in the case of Austria, for example, where the average consumption is only 150 calories below prewar, the population of Vienna or Linz or the other urban areas have a caloric intake that is probably under the figure for this program, by perhaps 300 or 400 calories below prewar. They have to absorb most of the smaller total average per capita consumption.

The second point that I would like to make is that the caloric figures here do not have nearly the same quality of food as prewar. It consists of a much larger proportion of cereals, a much smaller proportion of meat and fats and oils and dairy products and other protective and quality foods, which is an important consideration, I think, in valuing the significance of the figures.

Mr. KERR. If you are speaking of calories, it does not make any difference whether it is in wheat or in meat.

Dr. FITZGERALD. A calorie, Judge, regardless of where it comes from, including pot liquor. But there are psychological and physiological minimums in both proteins and fats. In Germany today, Judge, the limiting factor in the diet of the German people, low as it is, is not the total diet, but the fact that there is practically no meat and no fat in it. Another way of saying it, sir, is that you just cannot eat bread and nothing else. You have to have a little meat or a little fat or a little pot liquor, if you will, to go with it.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is the reason the farmers are getting more than their share, a lack of domestic control over distribution?

Dr. FITZGERALD. Most European farmers, sir, are no different from American farmers. It is very difficult to take away from any farmer that which he produces. He milks his own cows, he grows his own livestock, he produces his own crops. You would have to have the

Army at every farm doorstep in order to force them to disgorge more than you can attract out of them under any other process.

Mr. CASE. Undoubtedly the problem of collections

Dr. FITZGERALD. Is very serious.

Mr. CASE. Is very difficult, but still I was amazed to find out how thorough an attempt is made to make collections. Every apple tree was numbered. I talked with a boy herding some cows and he told me that about once every 2 weeks somebody came out and checked them when they were milking. It is impossible, of course, to get 100 percent collections of foodstuffs if the producer's own family is involved.

Dr. FITZGERALD. That is correct.

Mr. STEFAN. They carried that over from the Hitler program. When I was over there in 1939, in July, August, and part of September, I visited many farms and what Mr. Case indicates he found over there recently, was the situation when I was over there, at least partially, on the farms that I visited. The food was measured and the milk had to go into the cooperative. When Dr. Fitzgerald says that in spite of that the farmer who milks his cows and produces his produce is able to hold out a little, so that he has more than the man in the city, who has nothing to produce-that situation was true then, too.

Mr. CASE. Does this caloric intake estimate for 1948-49 take into consideration what these people will raise in their little garden plots, or is this over and above that?

Dr. FITZGERALD. This is an estimate you understand it is just an estimate, since it is a projection into the future on all the food supplies that there will be in the country from all sources.

Mr. STEFAN. Even including the little garden plots, to which Mr. Case has referred?

Dr. FITZGERALD. We have tried to make an allowance for even the small gardens. But frankly, they are estimates.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Generally speaking, what is the estimate of these imports based on, the farmer continuing to use more than his share? Or is it based on an anticipation that whatever supplies are available will be prorated?

Dr. FITZGERALD. That will depend upon the ability of the local administration to average out the total supplies. In saying that the farmer tended to eat better than the city dweller, I was not indicating that there should not be or that they will not make every attempt possible to collect and distribute; but that as a natural consequence of production you cannot expect the caloric intake of the producer of food to drop below the average level of the urban consumer.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTII. But we are being asked to provide taxpayers' money to put up a specific amount of grains. I know in Germany, for instance, they are making tremendous efforts to get the farmers to give up what was thought by those in control it was fair that they should give up, for the rest of the population.

How have these figures been determined? Is that in the picture at all, or is it just simply so many calories per head?

Dr. FITZGERALD. These figures that I gave you, sir, are merely a statistical average; it is all the calories in the domestically produced food program, plus the calories in the proposed import program divided by the total number of people in the country.