DISCIPLINE AND DRUG PROBLEMS

Mr. MAHON. In recent years, the Navy has had discipline and drug abuse problems which have resulted to some extent in lowering the capability of the Navy. What improvements in this situation can you point to?

Secretary WARNER. Mr. Chairman, Admiral Zumwalt together with the civilian management of the Navy has instituted a number of programs to combat the difficulties of drug abuse.

As you so well know, each year perhaps 75,000 to 100,000 young men and women from our society enlist in the Navy, and with them come a reflection of the problems that exist in society today.

I think we now better understand the problems that some of those young men and women are afflicted with, and I believe that our programs have improved the handling of this situation.

For example, let me give you some comparisons between fiscal years 1972 and 1973. In 1972, we discharged 5,936 young men and women because of implication in drug situations. In 1973, this figure was dramatically reduced to 1.422 discharges. We have been able to go in and help these youngsters in such manner that in 1972 we had 6,120 retainees. And in 1973 this was increased to 7,663 retainees.

In sum, we had a total of 12.056 drug-related administrative actions in fiscal year 1972, which declined to a total of 9.085 such actions in fiscal year 1973.

Admiral ZUMWALT. I think the exciting thing has been that, whereas in civilian life we understand that only about 8 percent of those detected involved with drugs recover and are cured, we have been running about 25 percent with regard to those in the Navy. We think this is a result of some very good programs.

Mr. MAHON. So you have made some marked improvement in handling the drug problem?

Secretary WARNER. Indeed we have.

Mr. MAHON. You do not have any streaking in the Navy, I assume. Secretary WARNER. Mr. Chairman, again our young people reflect the attitudes and mores of society, and it would not cause me any undue concern, but I defer to the Chief of Naval Operations on that.

Admiral ZUMWALT. I plan to be the guest "streaker" at lunch today. Mr. EDWARDS. Has the court decision had any effect on the Navy's drug problem?

Secretary WARNER. No, sir. We are well aware of the impact of that case. Thus far, we have been able to continue just as we have been doing.

Mr. SIKES. That decision has been appealed, has it not?

Secretary WARNER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SIKES. There is no final decision on it.

Mr. EDWARDS. One part of the problem is writing regulations. Secretary WARNER. I also understand one of the underlying problems was the method of search and seizure used in Europe.

Mr. EDWARDS. You have tried to profit from what you have learned from that case, I understand.

Secretary WARNER. Yes; we try to profit by the experience of our sister services at all times.

DISCIPLINE PROBLEMS ABOARD "KITTYHAWK" AND "CONSTELLATION”

Mr. FLYNT. You have had some rather serious discipline problems aboard two aircraft carriers, the Kitty Hawk and the Constellation. What steps do you feel you have taken to insure that incidents like that do not occur again?

Admiral ZUMWALT. I would like to start by explaining what I think the basic problem was there.

The basic problem was that the U.S. Navy had the poorest record of all the military services with regard to minority personnel. We had less than a percent of our officer community of minority background, and only a little more than 4 percent of our enlisted community of minority background.

In 1970, we began the process of trying to do something about this, as a result of which we have subsequently doubled the numbers of officers and the numbers of enlisted personnel in the Navy. We are now up to a percent and a half of officers, and about 8 percent enlisted, of minority background.

As those individuals came in at the bottom of the pyramid in the enlisted pyramid, they had a perception of institutional racism as they looked up at the top of that pyramid and saw almost no minority personnel there.

In addition, there was in the Navy, as in all institutions, some racism.

At the same time that this influx of personnel began to arrive, the Navy was at its point of maximum stress with regard to the Southeast Asia war. The ships were overdeployed, the largest number ever from the smallest base. They were undermanned. The ships had been undermaintained for a decade. The sailors were worked 14 and 15 hours. That led to sparks on two ships which led to the difficulties to which you have referred.

We have tried to do the following about it.

First, all those personnel who were guilty of misconduct were promptly disciplined.

Mr. FLYNT. I will withdraw the question. The chairman does not want us to go into that.

Mr. MAHON. No. Go ahead and proceed with your answer.

Admiral ZUMWALT. First, those personnel who were involved in the two incidents and who were guilty of misconduct were promptly disciplined. The majority of them are out of the Navy today.

Second, we redoubled our efforts to remove the root causes, the institutional and actual racism in the Navy.

Third, we have made it clear to all hands that they must continue to work on both the racial sensitivity necessary to avoid these kinds of difficulties, and on insuring that all hands understand that good order and discipline will be maintained on all our units.

Mr. FLYNT. Does that still include this touch and feel system of racial sensitivity?

Admiral ZUMWALT. I do not think the Navy has ever had a program for its military personnel that involved that. There was apparently a pilot program conducted with regard to civil service personnel at

one point about which I have talked to you, sir. As soon as that came to my attention, we had it knocked off.

Mr. SIKES. There was quite a bit of apprehension expressed in many quarters, and I felt that apprehension, that there had been too much relaxation of discipline in the Navy; that the troublemakers apparently got off, at least in some instances, with no disciplinary action. They were given an honorable discharge. I share the concern expressed by Mr. Flynt about relaxation of discipline.

Are you telling us now that the Navy discipline as we have understood it historically has been or is being restored, and that the troublemakers are not being allowed to decide what orders they will or will not follow?

Admiral ZUMWALT. No, sir, I am not telling you that, because there was nothing to restore, in my judgment. I do not believe that there has been any order given to relax discipline in any way in the Navy.

I believe that the fact of the matter is that our personnel continue to recognize that good order and discipline must be maintained. I believe we have to recognize the difference between the situation existing then and existing now with regard to the tremendous stresses and strains our people were under and the influx of minority personnel into an institution which was not prepared for that influx in terms of racial sensitivity.

Mr. WHITTEN. May I pursue that one step further.

Admiral, forgetting, at least for the moment, the issues you mentioned, and turning your attention in another direction, formerly we had a draft and men were called into the service and, because they were called, they were subject to discipline.

The Secretary of Defense was before us the other day, along with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I thought I learned a whole lot about the difference now, since we have what is called an all-volunteer service.

Actually, you pay a private $326 basic pay to get him to sign up, and a $2,000 bonus if he will put in 15 weeks of training and sign up for 4 years, and then you wonder whether he is going to reenlist. If he puts in 4 years, he can get up to a $10.000 bonus to reenlist again. You are operating the Navy with that kind of personnel.

Do you have to come down to a 40-hour week? Is one of the major factors that they may not renew the contract if you make them toe the line as they formerly did?

Admiral ZUMWALT. My estimate would be that the work week at sea is closer to 100 hours. Notwithstanding that, we are very proud of the fact that the reenlistment rates for our first tour sailors have gone from 10 percent in 1970 to 23 percent at the present time, and the oldtimers are reenlisting at the rate of 91 percent, which is the highest since the early sixties.

Mr. WHITTEN. I am very glad I asked the question, because it gave you the chance to give the answer.

Secretary WARNER. I think there is a seccond part to Mr. Whitten's question. In other words, were we compelled to relax any of the standards and traditions of the Navy in order to influence the enlistment rate?

I would say, firmly, no; that I do not believe we have done that. We have not relaxed the discipline, nor have we abridged any of the traditions in order to induce increased enlistments.

As a matter of fact, as I think the deckhands as well as the admirals would agree, you cannot operate ships, either in peacetime or certainly in wartime, without each man being dependent in some degree upon the other properly performing his duties. As a consequence, you have to continue the same strict standards of discipline and obedience to orders as has prevailed throughout the history of the Navy.

In order to induce increased enlistments, we have brought into being programs which will remove from service life those things that we regard as demeaning.

Further, we have to be more cconsistent with civilian life in the recognition of a person as an individual. We must remember that in the all-volunteer force, when we hire a man or woman today, we are competing with private enterprise. When we bring that individual in, we have to treat him, provide for him, in a manner consistent with what would be accorded him by private enterprise.

Mr. WHITTEN. I hope I have treated everybody that way all my life, but when you have to spend so much of your time in these areasI will not dig into the meaning of these various words, but when it gets to where in the Army and the other services you have to serve them their meals from a restaurant and they cannot do any kind of work looking after themselves, such as repairing shoes and doing all the things that they always did, when you have a local bakery to supply the bread, it makes you wonder, if the trucks go on strike or they get beyond the delivery point of the local bakery, whether we can fight or not.

I was raised to believe that it was not demeaning to work. I have done all kinds of work. I always thought it was good for me.

Admiral Zumwalt said the Russians have twice as many people in the service as we have. Yes, but they contribute to the domestic economy too. Ours do not.

Not only that, but ours are being pampered in the way I was talking about.

I just wonder if that is not a very nice way for you to get your fair share, competing with private industry to employ these people. You are getting them. I am asking, if your system is predicated on something like that, how good you are going to be if we get-I guess we have learned enough not to get into another Vietnam, but let us say we get into something else.

Secretary WARNER. I pride myself as coming from the old school. I served as an enlisted man in the Navy and as an enlisted man in the Marines.

Mr. WHITTEN. Direct yourself to this bonus. How much of the reenlistment comes because you can pay up to $10,000 to reenlist?

Secretary WARNER. Let me finish a little bit on the first question. I have experienced repairing my shoes. Certainly, I did my tours of KP. That profited me a great deal.

When we come to the Congress and ask for a manpower level, we have to use those men and women in the most efficient way we know how. Quite frankly, sir, it is our judgment that we can better employ

them in combat skills and training programs and give you a better return for your dollar than we can employing them baking bread and doing some of the other duties that I and the others who went into the Armed Forces years ago performed.

Admiral ZUMWALT. I wish it were possible for the members of the committee to go aboard our ships and see that today our people still sleep in tiered bunks, with about this much space between them. They still work in engineering spaces at 120 degrees of heat. They still come up with salt-encrusted dungarees. I believe you would agree with me that we are not having pampered sailors.

Mr. WHITTEN. I have worked in construction, too, and everybody around this table in one way or another has. I just ask these questions. Secretary WARNER. These are issues appropriate for public discussion.

Life at sea today has been improved to the extent we can, but those men still endure the personal hardships and risk of life in the same manner sailors have for hundreds of years.

Mr. WHITTEN. I wish it were possible that they did not have to do that, but I recognize when you are in war, you cannot always carry a restaurant around with you.

Secretary WARNER. There is no catering service on our warships. Admiral ZUMWALT. The only places I know where bread is being bought instead of baked are places where it is required under the costeffective rules with which all the services are required to live. In other words, if it is cheaper to buy it, it is my understanding we are required to do so. A ship still bakes its bread underway.

Mr. WHITTEN. It is a matter of self-sufficiency.

Mr. SIKES. Is it possible now under the present regulations for an individual or a group of sailors, for instance, to demand a session with their officers in which they will discuss an order and then decide whether or not they are going to obey that order? Is that possible? Admiral ZUMWALT. No, sir. No one is permitted to demand anything in a military organization.

REQUEST MAST

Mr. SIKES. Are there procedures by which they can request and obtain a session with their officers for a discussion before deciding whether or not they will obey an order?

Admiral ZUMWALT. For years, ever since I have been in the Navy, there has been a Navy regulation that requires every commanding officer to grant request masts in response to a request. In order for him. to be able to do so, every officer subordinate to him must relay that request, and does not have the authority to disapprove it without forwarding it to the commanding officer.

That procedure continues in effect. I believe it is a very useful procedure, sir.

Mr. FLYNT. For the purpose of discussing whether or not an order is to be obeyed?

Admiral ZUMWALT. No, sir.

Mr. FLYNT. That was the question.

Admiral ZUMWALT. No. There is no option with regard to whether or not to carry out an order. Every person has the opportunity to make