out, it is a wonderful shot in the arm to the morale of people who are trying to do something about it.

The CHAIRMAN. We are going to try to do it this year and if we can't we are going to keep at it next year and the next year. I am thoroughly convinced that it is one thing that is vitally needed.

I am likewise thoroughly convinced that the cities and the counties and States cannot do it without the cooperation of the Federal Government. It is an interstate matter and I am hopeful that you will enlist the assistance of the Senators and Congressmen from your State.

Mr. DALEY. I fully intend to do so, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Talk to them before you leave here today if you have time and arouse some interest in this problem. I think it is a terrific problem. There is nothing worse than to sleep and breathe this soot all night.

Mr. DALEY. The magnitude of the problem is impressive but the thing that impresses us is that you and Senator Kuchel, as far as I know, are the first ones in any country who have ever attempted to do something on a nationwide scale.

The CHAIRMAN. We are going to see if we can do it. We have a certain amount of resistance here. You get that on new ideas all the time. It ought to be done and I am certain we are going to be able to make some sort of a start on it. Just how elaborate we can make the first jump, I don't know, but I am sure we can make a start on it. I think it is a much needed thing.

Thank you very much.

We will now hear Dr. Greenburg.

STATEMENT OF LEONARD GREENBURG, M. D., COMMISSIONER DEPARTMENT OF AIR POLLUTION CONTROL, NEW YORK, N. Y.

Dr. GREENBURG. Mr. Chairman, my name is Leonard Greenburg. I am the commissioner of air pollution control for the city of New York. I have been on that job for going on 2 years. I am a graduate in engineering and a licensed professional engineer, and I happen also to be a licensed physician in the State of New York. I have read over this bill and I have prepared a brief statement which I would like to read.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed in your own way.

Dr. GREENBURG. I will submit it to your committee and then I will try to answer any questions which may arise.

The object of this bill is to further the elimination of smoke and air pollution in the United States by financial assistance from the Federal Government along 3 lines: (1) by the provision of $5 million in funds to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare for the undertaking of studies and the conduct of a program of a technical research in the field of air pollution; (2) by the provision of loans to business enterprises and the purchase of obligations of business enterprises by the Housing and Home Administrator to aid in financing the purchase of equipment for air-pollution control. The total amount of such investments, purchases and commitments shall not exceed $50 million at any one time; and (3), the provision of a deduction with respect to the amortization based on a period of 60

months of any device, structure, or equipment for the collection at the source of prevention or elimination of atmospheric pollutants.

For many years, industry in the United States has been growing at a rapid pace. But only relatively recently, have we, in this country, become aware of the important bearing of the effects of atmospheric pollution on the health and comfort of the citizens of our cities. At the present moment, there are two great needs in this field. In the opinion of the speaker, they are as follows:

1. We need more technical knowledge of the causes of atmospheric pollution and the devices and methods necessary for the control of such air pollution; and

2. Industry and those who pollute the atmosphere must place in operation the best known devices for the prevention of the dissemination and for the control of atmospheric pollutants.

The first of these needs will be greatly aided by the provision of $5 million per annum to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare, as set forth in the bill. In the opinion of the speaker, this portion of the bill is well drawn, for it enables the Public Health Service to utilize the widest possible range of Federal and other agencies for assistance in this program. One point which the speaker wishes to call to the attention of the committee is the fact that this portion of the bill does not mention studies on interstate atmospheric pollution and I believe the bill would be greatly strengthened by the addition of specific authority granted to the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare for studies on interstate atmospheric pollution.

In cooperation with local jurisdiction, I believe that should be written into the bill specifically, because it is one of the areas that now constitutes the most difficult problem to resolve.

Briefly stated, the problem of interstate atmospheric pollution is in need of intensive study at this time. The Department of Health, Education, and Welfare and the Bureau of Mines are the agencies of choice for such studies, and it is for this reason that I believe the proposed bill should be amended so as to include such provisions.

The second of these needs is the assistance to industry to aid in the financing, purchasing, installation, and construction of ir-pollutioncontrol devices which will be greatly furthered by the provision of loans to industry and the provision of rapid tax amortization. Briefly stated, we find that industry is often cognizant of its responsibility in the field of air pollution and is highly desirous of controlling air pollution generated by its processes. But, very frequently, industry finds that this imposes a financial burden which it cannot readily meet. The speaker feels, therefore, that the provisions outlined in this bill would greatly assist industry in meeting its community obligations and for this reason, we favor the passage of this proposed act.

To sum up, I would like to say that with the addition of provisions for the study of interstate air-pollution control, I believe that this act should have the full support of the Senate Banking and Currency Committee and the Congress of the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a good law in New York City? Dr. GREENBURG. Yes, sir, we have a pretty good law, sir. We keep on amending it all the time and are trying to improve it. We have a staff, now, of about 75 people, and our budget is about $375,000. For the coming fiscal year, it will be about $450,000.

44750-54-pt. 2—10

The CHAIRMAN. You feel this legislation would help your situation in New York?

Dr. GREENBURG. I believe it would help many parts of the problem very greatly; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. There is no question but what it is an interstate matter?

Dr. GREENBURG. There is no question in my mind. For instance, we know that our position in New York, with the prevailing winds, the direction of the prevailing winds and their velocity, brings pollution to us from adjoining States. It is very difficult to move on this problem.

I believe this is a prime area for the Federal Government to step in, and I believe that the Public Health Service and the Bureau of Mines could lay the groundwork for important studies in this field which should help us greatly. I would like to make one other suggestion, if I may.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, we would be delighted to have you do that. Dr. GREENBURG. Mr. Linsky made this suggestion. I think that if the Public Health Service gets the money for this work, there should be an advisory committee from the various States and cities or agencies interested, so that the Public Health Service would move along practical lines as we see the problem right on the firing line in our own cities and States. It is important that we get help along those lines, and in a more practical fashion, so as to solve pressing davto-day problems.

I think, finally, I would like to make one other suggestion that I don't think was mentioned in the proposed bill. That is that if the Public Health Service gets this money, they do some basic educational work in the field and assist the States and cities from the educational viewpoint. They might employ one or more educational experts to prepare pamphlets and material which could be used in the local areas effectively.

Education is a very important part of this field. It is pretty difficult in a local city to get money for educational efforts. If the Public Health Service had this money, they could do it on a central basis and then the material could be picked up by the various cities and used in these local jurisdictions. It would be of great help to us, undoubtedly.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any questions, Senator Payne? If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your testimony.

Our next and last witness will be Mr. John Clausheide of Evansville, Ind. He is the smoke commissioner of Evansville. We are delighted to have you, Mr. Clausheide. If you will proceed in your own way, we will have some questions for you.

STATEMENT OF JOHN CLAUSHEIDE, SMOKE COMMISSIONER,

EVANSVILLE, IND.

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. My name is John Clausheide. I am the smoke commissioner for the city of Evansville, Ind. Prior to 1949, we had an annual loss of approximately $600,000 in deterioration due to air pollution. We do not have a full-fledged air pollution program, as much as we would like to see it.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a smoke ordinance? Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. We have a smoke abatement ordinance alone. Last week a group of irate citizens appeared before the city council and asked that we have a prohibition against odious, noxious gases, and so forth, and fumes from plants. Our chief form of air pollution— we won't dwell any longer on dust fall-is smoke and industrial gases. We have only a smoke law, but we are amending it now to include industrial gases.

The CHAIRMAN. What is your biggest resistance in enforcing this law?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. Our chief drawback there is finance.

The CHAIRMAN. Finance?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. In what respect? There is not enough money to catch the offenders?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. We are confronted mostly with the small industrialists and the smaller businesses, where just a few hundred dollars is the difference between successful operation and no operation at all. The CHAIRMAN. Would this legislation help you in Evansville? Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. It would definitely help us. Outside of air pollution being a prime factor, financing would be No. 2. Getting back to our loss, our smoke abatement program now is 5 years old, and we have reduced our smoke 70 percent. We have a cooperational form of ordinance that has been complied with greatly by the railroads. They know the value of smoke abatement in efficiency.

In 1949 we had between 110 and 125 locomotives every 24 hours. Today, we have one. Our smoke has been definitely pulled down to 70 percent of its original volume. Now that we have reduced this $600,000 to approximately $200,000, we know this can definitely be reduced more, yet by giving the small industrialists means of financing a program that will help them install this equipment they need so greatly.

I also made a little survey before coming up here, through the realtors of the city, which I think will interest you. Suburban building is up 32 percent in our area over city building. Of this 32 percent, 40 percent give the reason that they want to escape the exhaust of the city, air pollution, smoke, dust, fumes, and so forth, by going to the country. I contacted a number of the realtors there and they have given me this figure with the best assurance that it was correct.

The easiest way that any small business can do it is to start with a small amount of money and any exhaust fumes or byproduct they have in the plant is fanned out in the atmosphere because of the immense cost of a lot of this equipment. Most of your industries today are synthetic industries. You may have the industries coming up in fields such as the gentleman spoke of awhile ago of cement, and so forth, but now you have all your heavy chemical industries, such as plastics, and so on, with an immense volume of fumes.

I have one particular case in mind where the fumes run about 4,000 cubic feet a minute, where the entire residential district, which is on the top of a hill, appeared before the safety committee to ask that an ordinance be adopted to prevent this company from turning loose fumes. So, health has been affected and property owners had sold their property.

The radio and the TV station were among the chief opponents of this company. We have been working with them consistently since 1949. They have given us the information that they do not have the money to go ahead with this. I do not know definitely that it can be cured, and it is within their scope of finances if they had some means to finance this.

The topographical terrain of our city, as you know, is that we are situated in the center of a soft-coal region. We do not advocate against the use of coal. As a matter of fact, we go along with it. We want to uphold our centralized industry.

The CHAIRMAN. I am 100 percent with you on that.

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. We go into the boiler room, the place where the fumes originate, and through engineering and salesmanship, we get the property owners to go along with us to stay away from the arms of the law. We find that with proper financing, the small-home owner and the small-business man would definitely go into air pollution control.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think the three features of this bill would be helpful to your city?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. I definitely do.

The CHAIRMAN. And help to eliminate more of the smoke?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. That is right. Today we must depend upon such institutions as the bituminous coal research, the Coal Producers Association, the United States Bureau of Mines, and so forth, for our information pertaining to smoke abatement.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have areas down there where even though you build new houses in the areas, within a period of time, as a result of the smoke and dirt, they would become slums and blighted areas!

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. The situation that I spoke of is in a highly residential district that will definitely be on the downgrade due to these fumes. We have a slum clearance program in Evansville at the present time. Incidentally, the two slum clearances in progress now are probably situated in the dirtiest parts of the city.

The CHAIRMAN. And when you build new buildings there, they will become dirty?

Mr. CLAUSHEIDE. That is right. They will become deteriorated in a few years. That is about all I had, Senator.

The CHAIRMAN. You have been very helpful, and we appreciate your coming in, as we do all other witnesses. I cannot help but comment, Senator Payne, that we have had 3 days of hearing and listened to 30 or 40 witnesses, and we have not had a single witness who has been against this bill or any portion of it.

Everybody has been for it. I think it is the first time in my history in 10 years in the Senate that every witness has been for a bill.

Is there anyone out there who is against this legislation? I hear no one. I suppose that one reason that everybody is for it is that everybody wants to get rid of smoke and dirt.

We thank you very much. You have been very helpful, and we appreciate it.

Is there anything else to go in the record? We will hold the record open until Monday, in case anyone wishes to file any additional statements or supplements.