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That is the key to this whole thing. Let's determine some orderly way to handle it.

Honestly, in a big country like ours it is simply a disgrace to have it go on as it has been.

Mr. STAGGERS. I might say just in conclusion that I have had in time bill practically since I have been in Congress, for about 16 years, and I believe I have received more mail from other States in the Union on this one thing than all the other bills put together, from all over the West, trying to get some, as you say, order out of the confusion that exists in those States.

Mr. GoFF. You are certainly to be commended, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. STAGGERS. Thank you again. It is very kind of you and your organization to give us your help.

Mr. GOFF. Thank you.

Mr. STAGGERS. Our next witness will be Mr. R. A. Trice, vice president and traffic manager of the Virginia Stage Lines, Inc., Charlottesville, Va., appearing for the National Association of Motor Bus Owners.

Mr. Trice, will you have a seat? We are very happy to have you with us and you may start right in with your testimony.

STATEMENT OF R. A. TRICE, VICE PRESIDENT AND TRAFFIC MANAGER, VIRGINIA STAGE LINES, INC., CHARLOTTESVILLE, VA.

Mr. TRICE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. STAGGERS. If you wish you may summarize this statement and put this in the record, or if you care to and deem it wise and necessary to read it that will be fine. We were hoping to get through by noon, but I doubt that we are going to. You use your judgment.

Mr. TRICE. Mr. Chairman, I have a prepared statement which I would like to offer for the record and I do think that I can summarize it for you by giving you a few illustrations.

Mr. STAGGERS. Fine.

Mr. TRICE. I would like to just point out to you the immediate problem we have, which we have often, as a result of the lack of time uniformity. The State of Virginia by legislative action put the State of Virginia on daylight time the Sunday after Memorial Day and the Sunday before Labor Day it reverts to standard time. Right at this present time we are working on schedules to become effective immediately after Labor Day, but due to the fact that the State of Virginia elected to change time on the Sunday before Labor Day we find ourselves with the problem of people leaving the District of Columbia, as an example, for a Labor Day weekend in Virginia and it is impossible almost to tell them what time the bus will come back because our schedule changes will be the day after Labor Day and Virginia reverts to standard time on September 6.

As another illustration in this immediate area, and you do have illustrations from all over the country, my company happens to operate across the narrow part of Virginia between North Carolina, Tennessee, and into West Virginia. We have a situation there within 96 miles where North Carolina and Tennessee on one side stay on standard time. The two counties in Virginia adjacent to Tennessee remain on standard time the year around. Between Bristol and Blue

field, W. Va., Tazewell County goes along with the rest of the State of Virginia, and you have Bluefield, W. Va., which observes the time as set by the State Legislature of West Virginia, which is from the last Sunday in April until the fourth Sunday in September, so in a 96-mile run there we have five schedule changes a year, and you can never adjust their schedules so people can get to the points that they want to be at the time they want to be there.

Another illustration is the 50 miles from here to Fredericksburg. With the new interstate highway it is going to be about 50 minutes running time, and you have a situation there of people actually living in Fredericksburg today commuting to Washington and their time is daylight time only from Memorial Day to Labor Day, and this creates an impossible scheduling situation.

In the intercity bus business today in order for a run to be profitable you have a combination of long-haul passengers and the use of those same buses to handle the passengers at intermediate stations, so you can see what an impossible situation we have, and this is summed up in the statement. This is generally our position. We take no position of one bill against another. We think you have qualified experts on that.

What we favor in the bus industry is uniform time. (The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF R. A. TRICE, VICE PRESIDENT AND TRAFFIC MANAGER, VIRGINIA STAGE LINES, INC., CHARLETTESVILLE, VA.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is R. A. Trice and I am vice president and traffic manager of Virginia Stage Lines, Inc., Charlottesville, Va., a motor common carrier of passengers, operating in interstate commerce under rights conferred by the Interstate Commerce Commission and in intrastate commerce by authority of certain State regulatory agencies.

I appear before your committee as spokesman for the National Association of Motor Bus Owners of which my company is a member. This organization, commonly called NAMBO, is the national trade association for intercity bus operations, and its members include the Greyhound, Trailways, and independent carriers who provide approximately three-fourths of such service throughout the United States and a number of Canadian Provinces.

I am also authorized to present the views of the National Trailways Bus System, an association of nearly 50 independent intercity bus carriers, of which my company is a member.

My testimony is directed primarily to H.R. 4702 and H.R. 7891 introduced by Chairman Harris of the full committee and the chairman of this subcommittee, respectively.

These measures would authorize the agency administering the proposed Time Act to establish time subzones during the summer months thus effecting the equivalent of daylight time by transferring such subzones to the standard zone immediately to the east. As Mr. Ramspeck has pointed out, enactment of this type of legislation would constitute a highly effective remedy for the chaotic situation which results from the lack of uniform time standards, particularly during the summer. As your committee knows, there are two aspects to the problem. One involves the situation in which individual communities or other areas, often adjacent to one another, observe different standards-some on daylight time and others on standard. The other facet is the difference in the dates on which the changes from one time to the other become effective.

For a number of reasons the intercity bus industry and its passengers are more seriously affected in terms of expense, inconvenience, and confusion than is the case in any other form of transportation. In the first place, our industry transports about a third more passengers annually than do the railroads and the airlines combined. Secondly, almost every community in the Nation and nearly every mile of the main rural highways are served by our buses. The Official Bus Guide, which is published monthly and contains the timetables of all the

principal carriers, is approximately the size of the Washington telephone directory and lists about 370,000 bus arrival and departure times. The schedules shown therein must be revised a minimum of twice a year solely because of the change to or from daylight time for all communities which observe advanced time. In many cases, four annual revisions are involved because of the discrepancies in the dates on which the time changes become effective for States or individual communities.

In addition to the problems involved in the preparation of this official guide, which is used for routing passengers by 25,000 or more ticket agents all over the country, is the preparation and printing of timetables by the individual carriers for use in their terminals and for general distribution. One of the major carriers reports that, at present, timetables are printed and distributed five and one-half times a year on the average. If uniform time, as proposed by these bills, were in effect this could be reduced to three times a year.

It is estimated that an additional expense of at least $250,000 annually is incurred by the carriers as a result of this chaotic situation for printing alone. This takes no account of the additional man-hours expended in scheduling departments in an attempt to rearrange service; the cost of these operations is undoubtedly several times the mere printing expenses, but it is impossible to attach a price tag to it.

The problems arising from this confusing situation are by no means limited to their impact on the carriers. Inevitably they detract from the effectiveness of our service and this, in turn, affects our patronage and revenues. To avoid burdening the record with a mass of detail, some of which would be repetitive, I shall offer only two illustrations.

The two illustrations that I would like to use cover a very small territory in relationship to the United States as a whole; however, I believe these two illustrations will point out why, in our opinion, this matter of time uniformity is a matter the Congress should handle rather than leaving it up to the individual States or local subdivisions.

The State of Virginia is bounded by the District of Columbia, the States of Maryland, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina. On the last Sunday in April the District of Columbia, Maryland, and West Virginia go on daylight saving time. By law, the States of Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina remain on standard time the year around. Now, on the Sunday after Memorial Day, by State law, the State of Virginia goes on daylight saving time, except that the counties adjacent to the District of Columbia, namely Fairfax and Arlington, are permitted to go on daylight saving time the last Sunday in April and then the counties which adjoin Kentucky, Tennessee, and North Carolina, namely Lee, Wise, Dickerson, Buchanan, Scott, Smyth, Russell, and Washington, remain on standard time the year round. Then, on the Sunday before Labor Day, the State of Virginia, other than the above exceptions, reverts to standard time except for the two counties adjacent to the District of Columbia which remain on daylight saving time until the last Sunday in October. In the meantime, the State of West Virginia reverts to standard time on the fourth Sunday in September.

This means that a carrier operating in this very small area, in order to have an up-to-date schedule for the traveling public, must completely revise and print schedules for the last Sunday in April, the Sunday before Memorial Day, the Sunday before Labor Day, the fourth Sunday in September, and the last Sunday in October. Not only is this expensive and time consuming but it is confusing and inconvenient to the traveling public.

The first illustration concerns a very short run of 96 miles between Bristol, Va.-Tenn., and Bluefield, W. Va. Bristol, Va.-Tenn., remains on standard time the year round. Between Bristol and Bluefield this bus passes through Washington and Russell Counties, the first two counties out of Bristol about halfway to Bluefield, which remain on standard time. The next county that we reach is Tazewell which goes along with the majority of the State of Virginia and observes daylight saving time from the Sunday after Memorial Day to the Sunday before Labor Day. Bluefield, W. Va., in the meantime, goes on daylight saving time on the last Sunday in April and reverts to standard time on the fourth Sunday in September.

From this example, I think you can see the impossible situation that arises in trying to schedule service to take care of the passengers.

For the second illustration, let's take a commuter passenger from Fredericksburg, Va., approximately 50 miles from the District of Columbia. On April 25 he could leave Fredericksburg at 7:55 a.m. and arrive in Washington at

9 a.m. On April 26, leaving Fredericksburg at 7:55 a.m., Fredericksburg time, he will arrive in Washington at 10 a.m. eastern daylight time. Then on May 30, the bus that departs Fredericksburg at 7:55 a.m. will be departing Fredericksburg at 8:55 a.m. It might be asked why we can't change the schedule out of Fredericksburg. This particular 7:55 a.m. departure out of Fredericksburg is a through bus from Tampa, Fla., to New York. So let us assume that we have a passenger in Fredericksburg who wants to arrive in Washington at 9 a.m.; on April 25 he departs Fredericksburg at 7:55 and arrives in Washington at 9 a.m. On April 26, for this passenger to arrive in Washington at 9 a.m. we would have to depart Tampa, Fla., an hour earlier and the passenger will have to depart Fredericksburg at 6:55 a.m., Fredericksburg time, to arrive in Washington at 9 a.m. On May 31, he will be back where he was on April 25. He will be departing Fredericksburg at 7:55 a.m. and arriving in Washington at 9 a.m. Then on October 25, we will again change the schedule out of Tampa leaving an hour later and we will depart Fredericksburg at 7:55 a.m. and arrive in Washington at 9 a.m. In the meantime, of course, we will have changed schedules a minimum of five times and whereas we may have accommodated the passenger out of Fredericksburg, we would have inconvenienced many passengers at intermediate points between Fredericksburg and Tampa.

An amusing incident occurred at our Washington terminal this spring. It is approximately 50 miles from Washington to Fredericksburg. The running time is 1 hour and 5 minutes. On the last Sunday in April when the District of Columbia goes on daylight time, a passenger departing Washington at 5:40 p.m. daylight time arrives in Fredericksburg at 5:45 p.m. standard time, or as it appears on the schedule, 5 minutes later than the departure time from Washington. A passenger approached our ticket agent in Washington at about 5:15 p.m. and inquired about the next schedule to Fredericksburg. The agent advised that the next departure would leave at 5:40 and would arrive in Fredericksburg at 5:45 p.m. The agent inquired of the man if he would like a ticket. He advised the agent that he had decided not to go but if it was all right with them, he was going to wait for the departure time to see the bus blast off.

Attached to my statement is an appendix containing excerpts from reports submited to NAMBO by member carriers further illustrating the wide variety of difficult and confusing problems faced by them because of this lack of time uniformity. I shall not impose upon the time of the committee to read this appendix unless it is your desire that I do so.

The confusion experienced by passengers is greatly augmented in the spring and fall during the various periods when the time changes are becoming effective. It is difficult and sometimes impossible to get revised timetables printed and distributed sufficiently in advance so that the public is informed on the bus schedule changes that are to be made. In some areas, particularly where time standards are subject to local option, these periods of confusion occur four or more times a year. Especially difficult are situations in which the revised schedules have been determined and timetables printed and distributed only to find that some local community has changed its mind about whether to go on or off daylight time or revised the date of the shift.

Nor is this problem limited to short-haul operations such as that which I have just described. Large numbers of our passengers take long trips, frequently involving transfers from one busline to another or connections with rail or air transportation. Added to the confusion within our own industry is the fact that many rail schedules are based on standard time while air schedules are typically published in local time. The problem of assuring reasonably satisfactory connections under these conditions is virtually insoluble.

Our buses also transport a considerable volume of mail. Here again, the difficulty of connections arises where mail transported by bus has a prior or subsequent movement by air or rail.

This matter of interline connections is further complicated by the fact that. on many of our relatively long-haul routes, we must serve the passengers who wish to travel comparatively short distances between intermediate points. This is a basic economic characteristic of intercity bus transportation because, on many routes, neither the short-haul traffic nor the through traffic alone is sufficient to meet expenses. It is obvious, therefore, that here again is a situation where variations in time standards among intermediate and/or terminal points often make it impossible adequately to serve our different types of patrons. More than likely, if we meet the needs of intermediate passengers, our bus is likely to

depart from or reach a terminal in a large city at an inconvenient hour with a consequent deterioration of the long-haul service and loss of patronage. It is impossible, of course, to assess the volume of missed connections, failures of friends and relatives to meet incoming passengers, and myriad other frustrations resulting from this situation.

As noted earlier, this statement is limited to the urgent need for a uniform time standard. Our members have repeatedly gone on record in this respect as evidenced by the following excerpt from a resolution adopted by our association: "Whereas the problems of scheduling and the confusion arising from daylight time zones are being annually increased and compounded: Now, therefore, be it "Resolved, That the National Association of Motor Bus Owners urge upon the administration and the Congress that every effort be made to establish time uniformity in the coming year."

This resolution is in accord with the position of the National Trailways Bus System, the other organization to which I referred earlier and for which I am authorized to speak.

As I pointed out earlier, we strongly favor enactment of legislation as recommended by the Interstate Commerce Commission and provided in H.R. 4702 and H.R. 7891. If some modification of these bills appears essential, we urge enactment of H.R. 11483, introduced by the chairman, which is identical with S. 1033 as reported out unanimously by the Senate Commerce Committee. Our immediate and urgent concern, however, is achievement of time uniformity and we support any legislation which would contribute thereto. It is also the consensus of the intercity bus industry that general adoption of advanced (daylight) time between the last Sunday in April and the last Sunday in October is much to be preferred.

We earnestly request your committee to approve a measure which will meet the need for time uniformity. Its adoption would permit our carriers to provide a more convenient and attractive service for the approximately 460 million passengers we transport annually; it would eliminate much of the present confusion; and it would result in substantial reduction in unnecessary expense to the carriers. I am most appreciative of this opportunity to present our views and I shall be glad to attempt the answers to such questions as the chairman and members may have.

APPENDIX

EXAMPLES REPORTED BY INDIVIDUAL BUS COMPANIES

Minnesota observes daylight saving time from approximately May 24 until Labor Day morning.

Wisconsin observes daylight saving time from the last Sunday of April until the last Sunday of September. (Neighboring States stay on until the last Sunday of October.)

Iowa has local option daylight time in all cities except Council Bluffs as of this year. At the time the ordinance was passed in Waterloo City Council, the alderman proposing it was not certain when the rest of the United States went off daylight time, so he proposed a date of October 4.

Indiana was plagued with time boundary problems and year-round daylight time. To solve the problem of year-round time, the ICC issued an order redesignating the time boundary. Many community near this new boundary decided to unofficially hold "fast time." While traditionally the remainder of the State goes on central daylight time, more and more communities have been holding the fast time into the winter to correspond to eastern Indiana's eastern standard time.

The major problem, then, is uniformity of dates and observance. Example: Minneapolis-Chicago route has five annual schedule changes due to daylight time observance in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois. Chicago and Milwaukee, 94 miles apart, are on the same time except for 1 month, September. On two lines, Omaha-Sioux City, and Fargo-Winnipeg, our buses use two routes one on each side of a river or State line. Each route is on a different time standard.

Scenic Hawkeye Stages operates from La Crosse, Wis. to Waterloo, Iowa, with a connection from Spring Valley, Minn. to these points. This company bridges connections between three major carriers, each of whom operates primarily in a State having different time observance dates (Iowa Coaches, Iowa, April 26 to October 4; Greyhound and Wisconsin Northern, Wisconsin, April 26 to September 27; and Jefferson, Minnesota, May 24 to September 7). The first of three carriers 36-471-648

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