Mr. WILSON. The Government never surrendered the right to determine disputes between citizens. The sovereign Government is devising a practical, simple, everyday method by which certain disputes, which are not half so serious as they are made out to be if there was a method of settling them, may be settled. Fix a practical method whereby the disputes between the railroads and the people may be settled. There are not so many as many people think there are. Let them be settled practically and not be kept indefinitely in suspense, and there will drop out of existence ninety-nine out of one hundred disputes. You will minimize the disputes, because both sides will hesitate to appeal unless they are certain they will prevail. As it is, the traffic manager may, by inadvertence or design, inflict injustice on a great number of people, knowing that they have no recourse.

I am coming now to the question of classification for a moment. Senator ALLEN. Right there will you excuse me if I interrupt you? Mr. WILSON. Certainly. I am glad to have you do so.

Senator ALLEN. You hold to the doctrine that certain railroads individually in competition can not care for themselves; that some of them must go down?

Mr. WILSON. It has been tending in that direction a good while. Senator ALLEN. Ergo, the road must be protected against itself by legislative enactment.

Mr. WILSON. I believe that is true.

Senator ALLEN. Therefore you hold that if one road which can not take care of itself may be permitted to associate with five or six other roads similarly situated, all together these five or six impotent roads will have strength to take care of themselves?

Mr. WILSON. I did not intend to touch that question, and I do not want to. I think you are leading up to the much-debated action of the National Board of Trade yesterday. I am only here capable of discussing the bill before you.

Senator ALLEN. That is all I desire to ask you.

As I

The CHAIRMAN. The original act that is now in force provides for the appointment of a commission which shall perform certain duties under the law. In the exercise of that authority they find themselves. without as much power as they think they ought to have, and as they think under the Constitution can be conferred upon them. understand you, you want such additional powers given to the Interstate Commerce Commission as the Constitution warrants and the courts will sustain, so that you can get a prompt and positive remedy for whatever ills befall you in the exercise of your business and the transportation of products, etc., and for the reason that the long delay, in the first instance, of getting through the courts is a practical hindrance to getting any relief at all. Is not that true?

Mr. WILSON. It is eminently so. You have stated the case. The CHAIRMAN. You are not contending that any unconstitutional power shall be given to the commission, but simply such additional powers as you believe are constitutional and which may be determined to be so by the courts hereafter, so that the commission will be able to conduct the business of the country and protect the people in their rights?

Mr. WILSON. Exactly. I should be very much ashamed of myself if I came here to represent an organized body of the kind I do and

asked for any unconstitutional, tryannical, and irregular action. The responsibility rests with you.

The CHAIRMAN. You state that the bill now before the committee contains that sort of a provision?

Mr. WILSON. I think it does, and the organization which I represent has declared in favor of that principle, and that is what I am here for. The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything you want to say about classification? Mr. WILSON. A kindred feature of the bill, remedial, but not exactly parallel, is involved in the section which provides that a uniform or national classification of the articles to be transported shall be made. Probably one of the most difficult tasks to which the railroad manager ever addresses himself is an enumeration of the articles which he proposes to transport at the same rate and under the same rules and conditions. By collating those different articles in groups and numbering them, there came into existence very shortly after the freight business was started what was called a classification. I think when I first went into railroading there were only three classes. There were very few articles enumerated, and as to any article not enumerated it was left to the bill clerk to decide. That has grown, with the necessities of the country and study on the part of the carriers, into a great big complicated subject, and there are now in the country a diversity of classifications which tend to complicate the transportation from one point to another of the products of manufacture, the mine, and the farm, and particularly the diversified products of the manufacturers.

An evil has grown into the working of this classification and its application to practice, and it is this: There is declared to the world by publication a classification which says that the following articles will be transported as first class-that is, at the same rate; that they will all go at the same rate-and we know by reference to the rates what that will be. Manufacturers establish their business upon the basis of that declared rate. Some day we find that, upon ten days' notice, the article that we are having transported at one rate to-day is taken out of that class and put in another arbitrarily, and without our consent and against our judgment. It is a much simpler task for the railroad official to determine what his rates are going to be between two points than possibly it is to determine what commodities are exactly alike and should be entitled to the same rate.

I am not without full appreciation of the difficulty that attends that duty, and in undertaking to bring it at this present condition of commercial affairs into the hands of a governmental agency I am confident that our organization had in mind the fact that, while the railroad companies had approximated justice and fairness in their classifications, the item of stability and regularity was more frequently violated through changes of classification than in any other way. Therefore in this bill it is suggested that the commission shall take these association classifications, have a year to do it in, and blend them into a national classification of freight articles.

The CHAIRMAN. Is it not true that a few years ago the railroad companies came within a vote or two of agreeing upon a classification? Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir; and there is a practical suggestion which I had in mind to make in connection with this talk. If this power be conferred upon the commission, it is more than probable that they will take up the work where the railroad companies laid it down, and they will examine very carefully the result of that long work of the

most expert railroad officers of the country, which ran through a period of three years and which was cast aside by the veto power of two railroads.

That illustrates what one of the Senators spoke of a moment ago about delegating powers. The duty of collating that classification was delegated to a very respectable body of expert gentlemen, and when it was collated the plan was thoroughly digested; it was a thoroughly practical plan, and it was printed and promulgated among all the railroads for their examination and consent. All the roads interested in it except two consented to it, and those two roads have had the power to hold that in abeyance ever since. As a matter of practical possibility, there is no doubt in my mind that that work would be taken up where the railroad experts laid it down and possibly modified in some particulars to meet the changes and conditions which have occurred in the last few years, and would be announced as the national classification. Then three months are allowed for the discussion or appeal. If any railroad or any shipper feels that these gentlemen have made a mistake he has a right to put in his objection within three months. After that the opportunity to appeal is perpetual; the opportunity for discussion and hearing is perpetually secured to both parties, but in the absence of appeal or discussion the arrangement of the classification as made by the commission shall stand and be the rule by which all railroads will apply the rates which they have made.

If they say that articles of the first class shall be carried from New York to Chicago at 75 cents, then all articles in the first class will be carried at that rate unless some shipper or some railroad shows to the commission a good reason why that should be modified, and the power of modification, hearing, etc., is perpetually retained. That, it seems to me, is one of the most eminently elastic and fair and practical propositions which has been before Congress or any business body in a long time. So far as concerns my personal acquaintance with the railroad managers of the country, and my intercourse with them in the last few days, many of them have said "We wish that might be brought about; it would take a very large work off our hands;" and some of them have said, rather sarcastically, "It would set the commissioners crazy and populate our lunatic asylums." But I am not prepared to accept that in any serious vein.

I will come to a conclusion by reciting an experience, almost a national experience, which illustrates what I am driving at. Some time in the month of November the rumor became current that it was the intention of the railroad companies throughout a thickly populated, heavy shipping district to make some radical changes in their cost of transportation by sweeping changes in classification. By the representative of a commercial body application was made to the principal officer in charge of classification in New York to know in advance what it was the intention of the railroads to do in the way of changing rates on the 1st of January. The reply was received that it was not in accordance with their rules of action to divulge their intentions, but when the classification was printed we could read it. That reply had a very soothing effect upon the commercial body which received it, and the condition was suggested to the Interstate Commerce Commission. After a good deal of consideration the Interstate Commerce Commission, consulting among themselves, said, "We will make that inquiry in the general interest of information and shippers."

They made the inquiry and received the same answer-that it was not their habit to divulge their intention, and that they would send them a printed copy of the classification when ready. The commission, feeling that the dignity of the Government was probably in their hands, intimated to these gentlemen that if they desired to come to Washington under subpoena to give the information they could have that privilege. Then the information was sent to them and was obtainable by the shippers of the country, and it developed such a widespread and disturbing element among the various shippers and manufacturers and merchants of the country that the Interstate Commerce Commission requested the gentlemen representing the classification to come to Washington and explain the ground upon which they had made the changes and invited shippers at the same time to come here and hear the explanation. There were about a hundred different shipping interests represented, of widespread territorial residence. They appeared here in Washington. They came to Washington at their own expense to hear the explanation of the changes in rates to which they were being subjected.

The principal officer of the classification committee was the first witness before the commission, and he stated very frankly and very clearly and concisely that the railroad companies needed more money. He said the method which they had determined upon was by change in classification; that if those changes were not sufficient to provide the money they wanted they would change it some more. That statement was made under oath to the Interstate Commerce Commission in my hearing.

With that explanation some members of the Interstate Commerce Commission asked him to explain the philosophic or commercial reason for these various classifications; for example, what did the committee have before it as a reason for changing the rate on asbestus cloth? He said, "I do not remember. We wanted more money. We went through the list and decided what we would raise from one class to another the articles which we thought could stand it. Many articles in the fourth class were put in the third class," which meant practically 50 per cent advance over the former rate. Many articles in the sixth class were put in the fifth class, which meant 20 per cent advance. The witnesses were not able to assign any other reason for the changes than the necessities of the railroads. The effect was that on the 1st day of January a great many manufacturers and shippers found themselves paying bills for transportation running from 25 to 45 per cent more than they paid last year, and that is an item of increased expense where sales are delivered which was practically unbearable to a great many people.

Then the railroad people decided that possibly it was not right to enforce this change, and they invited those who had grievances to come to New York on the 22d of January and state them. There were over a hundred and twenty-five different interests there presenting protests--the carriage trade, and the whisky trade, and the tobacco trade, and the soap trade. They all had their grievances. They had to go down to New York, pay their expenses, and tell why they ought not to have been jacked up.

The CHAIRMAN. Tell whom?

Mr. WILSON. Tell the railroad officers. There was a court where

the attorneys constituted the judges-where the judges sat upon their own case. I think this proposition in the bill before you is a cure which will prevent such another trade disturbance as is now being experienced.

The CHAIRMAN. All this is going to be printed, and it is expensive. Please confine yourself to the subject

Mr. WILSON. I am giving you an illustration.

The CHAIRMAN. Without detailing the history of meetings all over the country.

Mr. WILSON. I think when you read it you will hardly think the statement is open to that criticism.

Senator CHANDLER. You are giving us the reason why you think the Interstate Commerce Commission ought to do this particular thing.

Mr. WILSON. If a railroad company desires and can show good cause for changing from one classification to the other, the permission of the commission being granted, that rate can be announced to the country, and the disturbance of trade relations which accompanies a large number of arbitrary changes which have been made can be avoided.

The CHAIRMAN. Since that effort was made to which you and I both referred has there been any attempt on the part of the railroads to do anything in that direction? Have they quit trying to come to an agreement about classification?

Mr. WILSON. I am not able to say they have quit trying. I have heard a number say they could not agree. That is the only thing that prevents the adoption of that classification-the failure to get unani

mous consent.

The CHAIRMAN. They say that themselves?

Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir; you have had this question before you fully. You have a record of the history of that transaction in the archives of this committee.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not know but that it has been going on since. Mr. WILSON. They have never had any formal meeting. They have thrown up the sponge in a statement, practically, that they can not do it.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further you wish to state?

Mr. WILSON. Not unless there are some questions. I am very much obliged to you, gentlemen.

STATEMENT OF L. B. BOSWELL..

Mr. BOSWELL. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I desire, on behalf of the Quincy Chamber of Commerce, the Quincy Freight Bureau, and the National Association of Freight Commissioners, to ask the Congress of the United States, through the Committee on Interstate Commerce of the Senate, to come to the relief of the shippers by giving them some tribunal that will stand between the shippers and the railroads, for the purpose of settling questions which rise from time to time; for the purpose of assisting in making rates stable; to insure a uniform and properly graded classification; to provide some intermediary, whether it is a court or a commission, with powers that will be recognized by the railroads and by the courts; for the purpose of establishing a basis, equitable and fair, to reach the original intention in view