amortization of our loan, allowing worthy, sensible people who need he sort of atmosphere which our home is going to provide, God willing, then I think that this would be a tremendous help.

I mean I am going to feel very badly, as an administrator, if somebody comes to me, and they do not have the income, and they should be in our home.

Senator WILLIAMS. What would you think of rent supplementation in this areas, as we have it in other areas?

Mr. DORMAN. I think it would be a fine thing. Anything which would achieve this purpose of allowing the people to do this.

Senator WILLIAMS. It might add another pound to that application, however.

Mr. DORMAN. It might. But the Government does tend to seem to complicate matters rather than simplify matters. I guess this is an inevitable process. I am just calling it to your attention; I am not complaining.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, with your president so eager to deal with pounds of applications, you will probably be the first to qualify, here. Mr. DORMAN. I thank you very much for the opportunity of appearing before you. I consider it a great privilege.

Senator WILLIAMS. I am glad to hear that this program is potentially on its way to being so helpful and useful to your members.

Mr. DORMAN. It is a tremendous assist. And I think that many more churches-I am speaking for churches at the moment-would avail themselves of this, if they did not have the initial discouragement of hitting somebody in a regional office, possibly, who never heard of the program. And this has happened.

Senator WILLIAMS. I am particularly encouraged, because I remember the day that the money was appropriated for this program. I happened to offer the amendment that raised the appropriation bill from $5 million to the authorized $50 million. And we had a rather tense but exciting half hour of debate, and we got the $50 million. The conference pared it a bit.

But the thought then was, "Well, this is new. Let us demonstrate it with a pilot project or two. Let us experiment."

It seems to me that it was so fundamental that we knew enough to get a program underway, and not waste years, in experimenting with what should be relatively simple as a concept.

Mr. DORMAN. This project will be a pilot project, incidentally, for the Federal Government in this area, and actually, it is putting the care of the aged where it belongs, with nonprofit, responsible groups, and takes the burden off of the State and Federal Government and so forth, and puts it exactly where it should be.

If the churches are going to be of any use, they have to take an active part in programs like this, and my group is delighted to be able to do so.

Senator WILLIAMS. If anybody tries to excise this from the bill when we go to the floor of the Senate, I will be quoting you at length. Thank you very much.

Mr. DORMAN. Thank you very much, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. Mr. Richard Schifter, attorney, representing the Oglala Sioux Tribe.

You are a fortunate man, Mr. Schifter. There is a lot of wisdom in the philosophy of the Sioux Indian.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD SCHIFTER, ATTORNEY, REPRESENTING THE OGLALA SIOUX TRIBE AND OGLALA SIOUX HOUSING AUTHORITY OF PINE RIDGE, S. DAK., THE PUEBLO OF LAGUNA AND THE LAGUNA HOUSING AUTHORITY OF LAGUNA, N. MEX., AND THE NAVAJO HOUSING AUTHORITY OF WINDOW ROCK, ARIZ.

Mr. SCHIFTER. That is very true, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMS. Have you ever heard the expression-well, it is more than an expression, but one of the principles they live by. "Before you are harshly critical of any man, walk 2 miles in his moccasins." Have you ever heard that?

Mr. SCHIFTER. Yes, I have. I think Senator Humphrey has a sign to that effect in his office, too.

Senator WILLIAMS. Is that right? Well, I do not know if he walks 2 miles in everybody's moccasins no, I should not. That is not charitable. He walks more than 2 miles.

Mr. SCHIFTER. Mr. Chairman, my name is Richard Schifter, and I am an attorney with offices at 1700 K Street, NW., Washington, D.C. I am here to testify on behalf of the Oglala Sioux Tribe and the Oglala Sioux Housing Authority of Pine Ridge, S. Dak., the Pueblo of Laguna and the Laguna Housing Authority of Laguna, N. Mex., and the Navajo Housing Authority of Window Rock, Ariz.

These organizations have authorized me to testify in support of those features of S. 2468 which further expand the program of housing for low-income families.

Public housing on Indian reservations is a relatively new concept. It was only as recently as 1961, 24 years after enactment of the statute which launched the federally assisted public housing programs, that it was discovered that Indians, too, may benefit from this program.

As I was told by some officials of the Public Housing Administration, it had been assumed that the Bureau of Indian Affairs took care of housing needs on Indian reservations. Indian Bureau officials in turn, had, prior to 1961, no idea of the possibilities under the public housing program and had no funds of their own to provide housing assistance to Indian people. This complete absence of programs of Federal public housing assistance resulted in the continuation of the appalling housing conditions in the Indian country.

Indian reservations probably constitute the worst rural slums in the United States. On the reservation of the Oglala Sioux TribeSenator WILLIAMS. Where is it, by the way? Maybe you said, but I did not hear. Where is this?

Mr. SCHIFTER (continuing). Pine Ridge, S. Dak.-you have been there, Senator-which frequently experiences subzero weather in the winter, some people still live in tents, others in "houses" built of twigs or of cardboard. When the Oglala Sioux Tribe established the first Indian Housing Authority in 1961, and a survey was made by the Public Housing Administration of housing conditions on the reservation, it was established that at least 95 percent of the reservation families live in substandard dwellings.

Construction on the first Indian public housing project, at Pine Ridge, S. Dak., was begun in 1962. Fifty-one homes were built and were occupied early in 1963.

I will read my next sentence, Senator. It is not addressed to you. I hope that members of this committee will have an opportunity to visit Pine Ridge and speak to some of the families who now live in these homes. If you ever had any doubts about the wisdom of the public housing program, they would surely be dispelled.

And I believe, Senator, that you can undoubtedly vouch for the accuracy of that statement on the basis of what you saw.

Senator WILLIAMS. It is certainly true. We were out there last year at Pine Ridge. It is just remarkable to see the difference in the lives of those who are living in the huts and those families that have the fine housing as you enter the reservation.

The kids are just different kids, for example, cleaned up, spruced up, alive and alert. The youngsters living further out on the reservation in the most wretched housing, I agree with you, that is imaginable, are entirely different.

Mr. SCHIFTER. Senator, you are anticipating my testimony, actually, in what you have just said. This is a very fact.

If you talk about children, for example, I have had discussions with members of the staff at the schools, the principal of the school at Pine Ridge, and he said he had no doubt whatever that as soon as these families started moving into these new public housing homes, you could just see on children what this change meant to them.

Senator WILLIAMS. Of course, there is another element there. There was a small industry brought to the reservation, and that has af fected the youngsters, too.

We had a little girl come up to us saying, "How do you like my new dress? My father works in the fishhook factory."

Mr. SCHIFTER. That has helped a great deal. There is no question about that. At the same time, we have made room in the public housing units for young widows with a good many children who are on public assistance. And for them, too, this has been a great step upward.

Public housing has done no less than give these Indian families a new view of life. It has taken families of six and seven who had lived in one-room, dirt-floor shacks, and has made it possible for them to live in decent, well-insulated, sanitary homes, with indoor toilets, bathrooms, and with privacy for individual members of the family.

The benefits of better housing are reflected in better health, a better attitude toward schooling on the part of the children, and a more optimistic view of life on the part of the adults.

And may I just add that despondency is really the kind of problem that just hits most reservations and most Indian people, and this was just a new ray of light, for them to have the housing that was started just a few years ago.

Having said this about the experience of the families in the homes, I must also point to the needs of the families on the waiting lists of the Oglala Sioux Housing Authority.

The total allotment to the authority was 150 units. When they are completed, they will have provided less than 8 percent of the reservation's need for decent housing. We shall still have 92 percent to go. That is why the Oglala Sioux Tribe hopes that the public housing program will be expanded through favorable action on the public housing features of S. 2468.

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I should add, here, that of these 98 percent, there is no doubt that not all of them will be able to qualify under the income standards of the public housing program. And when I say that, I mean that the incomes will be lower than the income standards that the Public Housing Administration provides.

First of all, by just expanding the existing program, a good percentage of these 92 percent that are poorly housed now could be accommodated, and hopefully, further programs will be initiated by the Public Housing Administration, which will also take care of those that are below the level that PHA now provides for.

Incidentally, I may add that in dealing with Indian reservations, and Indian tribes, the use of low-income families has been thoroughly confusing, and we have substituted for the low-income term in dealing with Indian tribes the term "middle-income families," because what is a low-income family elsewhere is for purposes of the PHA program a middle-income family on an indian reservation.

And a low-income family does not qualify under the present program, and has to be provided for possibly under the new program initiated by PHA of so-called self-help housing.

Senator WILLIAMS. Perhaps this is what Mr. Blackfield from the homebuilders we referring to when he said public housing is not reaching those who need it most.

Mr. SCHIFTER. As a matter of fact, the so-called middle-income families were living in miserable shacks before, too, and they are now being provided for. You cannot say that the other group needs it most. They need it equally.

Senator WILLIAMS. I will say that there are people today, as there were people in the 19th century, who feel that people who live in hovel housing, if transferred to sanitary and wholesome housing, will not know how to take care of it, and will not know how to use it properly.

Now, this we have seen demonstrated to the contrary, out there. There is really active competition between people in the new public housing, in keeping their places immaculate and decorative. The lawns are the finest kept I have ever seen. It is really refreshing to

see.

Mr. SCHIFTER. That is absolutely true, Senator.

When I was out there the first time after the public housing project had been finished, and I saw my good friends, who were, let's say, grandchildren of buffalo hunters, standing in front of their houses with a power mower, mowing the lawn, just in good suburban tradition, it was kind of fascinating to see how suburbia had suddenly come to the Sioux country. It was a very interesting thing.

I am not sure whether it was all for the good, but certainly by and large, I would say it is for the good. And as you have indicated, these people have demonstrated that they can take care of good housing.

We use the home extension agent to explain such matters as how to use a refrigerator and modern range, and things like that, but the women definitely wanted to learn, and have learned.

What I have said about the needs of the reservation of the Oglala Sioux Tribe applies with equal force on the Laguna and Navajo reservations. Both of these reservations have begun the necessary planning for public housing programs.

Under its present authority, the Public Housing Administration has allocated 40 units to Laguna, and 500 units to the Navajos. But these allocations, too, are mere drops in the bucket.

A survey by the Public Housing Administration revealed that at least 2,500 units could be justified for the Navajos in terms of need and ability to pay for the upkeep. If need were the only criterion, the Navajo reservation alone could justify an allocation of more than 10,000 units.

To return, for a moment, to Pine Ridge, where the housing program has been underway for the longest period; the new homes have not only brought better housing but also new opportunities for training and employment.

Many Indian men who had never had a chance to learn a trade and become regularly employed were given the first chance in their life to acquire a skill. They have used this opportunity well. Many families which were heretofore candidates for the public assistance rolls will now be self-supporting, for the heads of these families will now be able to find jobs wherever they might go.

This fortunate development is the result of the willingness of the Public Housing Administration to adhere to the request of the Oglala Sioux Housing Authority to give local residents employment through the force-account method. As a consequence, the homes on the Pine Ridge Reservation have been built at less expense to the taxpayer, both in terms of construction dollars and in savings on relief rolls.

And may I add in this connection that in terms of a program against poverty, it has been suggested that construction programs by and large do not help the people most in need and the areas most in need. On the Pine Ridge Reservation, we have been able to demonstrate that the people most in need can be helped, too.

And again, this is thanks to what the Public Housing Administration has been willing to accept in terms of the method used in constructing these homes.

I would like to add a final word about the Public Housing Administration.

The Indian tribes participating in the program have been most impressed by the cooperation which they have received from the PHA staff. From Commissioner McGuire on down to the field officials, everyone has been enthusiastic and eager to help.

The tribal officials have authorized me to say that they are extremely grateful.

Senator WILLIAMS. Who is head of the tribal council now at Pine Ridge?

A

Mr. SCHIFTER. Mr. Willing Horse is still the president now. new election has been held, and the new chairman is Mr. Poor Bear. Senator WILLIAMS. My friend William Willing Horse lost out? Mr. SCHIFTER. No, he decided to retire from public office. Four years was as much as he could take.

Senator WILLIAMS. He was a very effective man.
Mr. SCHIFTER. Yes, he is.

Senator, I have one further statement, a technical one. I refer now to page 38, section 313, of the bill. On line 23-and this does not refer to public housing, but refers to planning grants for Indian reservations, and I just want to make a suggestion for technical amendment.