It is exactly that kind of organizing that it seems to me is important in this society and where there are very few people doing it.

Mr. MICHEL. It would appear to me that would get into the areas that conflict directly with the line items we are appropriating in this appropriation bill.

I read someplace where your director of VISTA last year told the New England regional director to encourage VISTA volunteers to take part in the demonstration against nuclear power in New Hampshire.

Did I read that right?

Mr. BROWN. No, I do not believe you read that correctly.

Mr. MICHEL. I stand corrected.

VOLUNTEER ARRESTS

When VISTA volunteers were previously arrested they were immediately placed on leave without pay. Do I understand you have changed the policy and now continue to pay volunteers even while they may be in jail?

Mr. BROWN. Mr. Congressman, I am not aware whether there has been a change in policy or not, but frankly, just on first blush, it would strike me as a good change to make.

Mr. MICHEL. Do you have any in jail currently?

Mr. BROWN. No.

MS. TABANKIN. There were three VISTA volunteers that were arrested. I think that is the incident you are referring to in New Hampshire. They had all chosen to take their seven days' personal annual leave time at that time, and they were therefore covered under vacation time, so the agency did not take any action against them.

Mr. BROWN. They had taken leave time before they were arrested. They did not get arrested and call in and say, "Now we want to take our leave time." They had gone explicitly on their own personal leave time to take part in an action which resulted in their arrest.

EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT

Mr. MICHEL. Your assistant, John Lewis, is recently quoted as saying no training sessions for your volunteers will be held in states which have not ratified the equal rights amendment. Is that right?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. MICHEL. That is your policy?

Mr. BROWN. Yes. We had a number of women employeesMr. MICHEL. Who told you that is the way you ought to go? Mr. BROWN. That was my decision. We had a number of women employees who said they did not want to go, and while they would not refuse to go if they were ordered to go but since they areMr. MICHEL. Did the men have a voice in that?

Mr. BROWN. I had a voice in that.

Mr. MICHEL. You were the only man?

Mr. BROWN. No. John here, Peter; the deputy and others.

GOVERNOR'S VETO

Mr. MICHEL. I understand your general counsel recently issued a memorandum stating the director in certain cases can override a governor's veto. Is that true?

Mr. BROWN. No, that is not true. There have been discussions of that as a legislative policy, but there is now no legislation. Mr. MICHEL. But you were thinking about it at one time? Mr. BROWN. Oh, yes.

VOTER REGISTRATION

Mr. MICHEL. I am glad you had a change of heart. Did you submit a recommendation to OMB asking that the law be changed to eliminate the prohibition on volunteer participation in voter registration activity?

Mr. BROWN. Yes.

Mr. MICHEL. What was the reason for that?

Mr. BROWN. I do not mean to suggest we have changed our mind. Let me clarify the last answer. There is currently discussionMr. MICHEL. Maybe you have not changed your mind, but maybe your superiors have?

Mr. BROWN. It is conceivable, but it has not gone to the Congress at this point. But, in direct answer to your question, we have requested that the legislative prohibition on non-partisan voter registration be lifted.

UNION ORGANIZING

Mr. MICHEL. I come from Peoria, 165 miles away from Chicago, but I know all about that activity of government employees and volunteer organizations and that freedom of choice and how we want you to participate in the election process. We have had our fill of some of this organized government intervention. I have to express my own concern about it. Have you also recommended to OMB that the law be changed to remove the restriction on volunteer participation in labor organizing?

Mr. BROWN. In response to the last one, we have not asked for a legislative change which would permit VISTA volunteers to participate in voter registration as a part of their regular activities. But as we move to more locally recruited volunteers, to say a local volunteer could not on their own time participate in voter registration seemed a denial of a fundamental part of citizenship.

We have made no request with regard to VISTA volunteers in regard to union organizing.

HATCH ACT

Mr. MICHEL. What about the Hatch Act?

Mr. BROWN. It is my understanding there has been ongoing debate about whether anyone should be subjected to the provisions of the Hatch Act. I do not believe we have any legislative change in regard to the Hatch Act.

No, we have not proposed that.

Mr. MICHEL. You anticipated my next question because I was going to inquire whether or not there had been some suggested changes for the Congress.

CONSULTANTS

I understand you have been hiring many so-called consultants. How many have you hired up to this point?

Mr. BROWN. I would have to provide that information for the record. I doubt that we have a list here.

Mr. MICHEL. I think if you are going to come up for a hearing, that would be very important information in your backup material. Is there a budget ceiling on the kind of consultants or number you can employ?

Mr. BROWN. No. There is obviously an overall personnel ceiling which we have to deal with.

Mr. MICHEL. Are you sure there is no ceiling set for volunteers by the Office of Budget and Management for your shop?

Mr. BROWN. For consultants?

Mr. MICHEL. For consultants.

Mr. BROWN. No, there is not. I am quite certain.

Mr. MARKHAM. There is a total employment ceiling on the agency, which includes consultants, also includes all other employees: temporaries, permanents, and everybody.

Mr. MICHEL. Are you under that ceiling?

Mr. BROWN. As of January 31 we had 1,788 permanents and 206 temporary and part-time employees on board against a March 31 ceiling of 1,875. However, by March 31, we cannot, and will not, be over that ceiling as the number of temporary people currently on board will be reduced by then.

Mr. MICHEL. Did I hear that one of those consultants is one of the so-called Chicago 7?

Mr. BROWN. That is true.

Mr. MICHEL. What is he being paid?

Mr. BROWN. I do not know what he is being paid. He was employed as a consultant to deal with development of communitybased programs. He was a defendant in a trial in which he was acquitted and is currently employed as a consultant.

Mr. MICHEL. Does he work in your office?

Mr. BROWN. No. He does not work directly for me. He works in the Office of Policy and Planning.

Mr. MICHEL. Is John Parr one of your consultants?

Mr. BROWN. He was a consultant for about two weeks.

Mr. MICHEL. You know there was a rumor his main claim to fame was he helped you move from Denver to Washington and then got on the payroll as a consultant, and that was the mechanism by which the transfer was made. What do you have to say? Mr. BROWN. Not true.

Mr. MICHEL. Why was he on for a limited period of time?

Mr. BROWN. There is no connection at all. John Parr is someone I have known. I do not deny that for a moment. He was the executive assistant to the Governor of Colorado and had been responsible for a wide range of programs in the state. He came here at the time to help put together an office working with the new director of that Office of Compliance-period.

Mr. MICHEL. I would like you to provide for the record a list of all of ACTION's consultants that you put on board during the past year, along with the reasons why they have been brought on board, their rate of pay, their length of service, and what they did before they came into this consulting service.

Mr. BROWN. Absolutely.

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