Dr. DRYDEN. Yes. This is a problem, of course, with which we are very much concerned. At the present time the payloads are in the nature of scientific instruments. The heaviest scientific payload is perhaps a large telescope for astronomical purposes, which may be in the order of a ton or something more.

The really large payloads are needed as we go to much more difficult scientific machines, and, in particular, when we involve man in the process.

If I may illustrate this a little bit, the same cluster that we were talking about might put 10 tons or so in orbit, would put perhaps 1,700 pounds in soft landing on the moon. The more and more weight that you want to put far out into space, the bigger the booster you have to start with, because you have to lift the extra stages. You have to provide, in some cases, retrorockets to slow the vehicle down, to make it orbit about a planet.

you

In the case of the moon, a soft landing on the moon, we think it is not too early and we have some plans to start work on apparatus that you might put on the moon, what kind of measurements would make on the surface of the moon. You have to have a payload that does something for you, analyzes the rock, sees what the atmosphere is there, shows you a picture back, or what not.

The development of such a payload is quite a complicated task. You can do a certain amount of testing of such a payload by dropping it out in New Mexico, perhaps, and trying these automated devices

out.

Now when you come to include man, then you have all the problems of his sustenance, of landing him softly, getting him off again. These are the kinds of missions for which we need the very large payloads. In general, the ones which go to large distances in our solar system and the ones which involve man. These are the two-well, I might also mention communications.

In some of the more advanced communication satellites we will want a fair weight of complex apparatus, repeaters. We will have to deal with the supply of power that will last for a considerable time, because you do not want to have to replace this satellite every 6 months. This means the development of probably nuclear reactors as a source of the power, the devices for converting this into electrical energy to operate all the gadgetry in the payload. All of these things will take weight.

If you put a man in, I have already mentioned shielding which runs up the weight. These are the kinds of payloads for which we need much greater weight.

'Mr. SISK. That, of course, was the point I had in mind, that there is certainly a relationship. Thrust alone is not the whole story. Dr. DRYDEN. Not the whole story.

Mr. SISK. In other words, we have got to have some need for it and be able to put it to useful purposes or else just building a 10 million pound thrust engine wouldn't be worth a great deal unless we could recover something and we had the adequate type of payload to go along. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Van Pelt.
Mr. VAN PELT. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mitchell.

Mr. MITCHELL. Dr. Glennan, first I would like to commend you on your attitude in your statement concerning our not underestimating the present progress and the potential progress of the Soviet Union in this field. I feel as you do, and I feel that both Doctors Stewart and Dryden-they have not stated it but I think they reflect your attitude, as I do. I think it certainly would be dangerous for the American people and the Congress to underestimate at any time their potential.

Now, in line with-somewhat in line with the questions of Mr. Sisk, is there a priority project? Do you have a single priority, top priority project in existence at this time? Is thrust a prime project at this time?

Dr. GLENNAN. Project Mercury is really the project on which we lavish our top priority, and following that the million-and-a-half pound single-chamber rocket.

Mr. MITCHELL. That leads me to another question. You have mentioned the propulsion by a cluster of rockets. Now what is the peculiar advantage or particular advantage to the single-chamber type propulsion rather than the cluster?

Dr. GLENNAN. The ability to cluster it, finally, to get substantially larger thrusts.

The clustering today of the rocket engines available to us will give us propulsion in the neighborhood of 1 million to 1.5 million pounds of thrust. The single-chamber rocket will give us a million and a half pounds of thrust when it is fully developed. We cluster four of these and get 6 million pounds of thrust, and this is the type of thrust that will be needed when you send a man to the moon and get him back.

Mr. MITCHELL. Earlier today, I believe in our chairman's questioning, you stated that there was no-you are not in a crash program. And I have the same definition of a crash program as the chairman. I am not referring to a large amount of money being wasted. Do you have the money that you need?

Dr. GLENNAN. At the present state of our development I think we have the money to carry this program through on an urgent basis, which I take to be the basis which you really meant. And I have stated in the Senate hearings that if, as this program moves-and it is moving very rapidly-there appears to be a need for additional money, I shall have no hesitancy in going through the proper channels to ask for that money.

What I have said to you, of course, presumes that the Congress will approve the budget which was presented late last month.

Mr. MITCHELL. In line with that, Doctor, are there any projects that you-and I would like to have the comment of either of the other gentlemen, both to your right and left if they so see fit-are there any projects now that may be in the drawing-board stage that you feel should be be put into effect if you had the money today?

Dr. DRYDEN. Well, I cannot think of any one, again emphasizing that we received this approximately half a million dollars that is before the present Congress. We have provided for initiating the projects that we feel have reached this point of practical initiation.

Now, before the year is over I am sure that we will be moving on into others. As the program develops, each of these projects that we start is going to cost more than it is costing this year. The availability of money is a time phase thing. We have to believe that you gentlemen will supply the money as it is needed, as the program develops, rather than saying that we can put in the bank once and for all the amount necessary for the next 5 years.

Mr. MITCHELL. Then do I gather, Dr. Dryden, at this point you feel that there is no project that you need additional money for?

Dr. DRYDEN. I think that is a fair statement.

We of course are receiving proposals from very many sources for almost identically the same projects. This is what is happening all around.

We are trying to, and have, picked out-take Project Mercury, I think you will find a very general agreement among all contractors who studied it, that the quickest way to get a man into space is through the use of the so-called drag-type vehicle, that it would take much longer to develop a winged vehicle. Therefore we have taken Project Mercury, made this the highest priority, we went through a competition to select the design and carry forward.

Mr. MITCHELL. In submitting your budget did you eliminate any proposed projects that you felt might expedite this program?

Dr. DRYDEN. We certainly did not eliminate any that we had proposed. I think there have been-there are proposals from outside for a very great many projects. They differ very little in objectives from the objectives of the projects that we have initiated.

Mr. MITCHELL. Do you feel the same way, Dr. Stewart?

Dr. STEWART. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Baumhart?

Mr. BAUMHART. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Quigley? Mr. Bass? Mr. Hall?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Glennan, I am David Hall from North Carolina.

The President in his statement made the statement that each one of these vehicles cost approximately $35 million. I have seen reports from other sources that would lead me to believe that the cost of these vehicles did not come near that figure.

Now, has your agency or administration set up any means for the dissemination of information to the public?

Dr. GLENNAN. Oh, yes. We have a public information office, if that is what you mean.

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Dr. GLENNAN Yes, sir

Mr. HALL. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Riehlman?

Mr. RIEHLMAN. General-Doctor, rather, Glennan. I am used to talking to military so often that I forget we have civilians before us on the committee.

I am vitally interested to know what arrangements you have with the three military services to coordinate this whole effort that we are vitally interested in?

Dr. GLENNAN. There is provided in the law a committee known as the Civilian-Military Liaison Committee, which is chaired by Mr. William Holaday, on which sit four members of staff. These are our top staff. Dr. Silverstein, Dr. Dryden, Mr. Stewart, Mr. Abbott. Mr. Hyatt is an alternate. And a representative from each of the armed services and from the Secretary's Office, also.

This Committee meets upon the call of the Chairman and they will provide a channel for interchange of information. But this isn't all.

We have established 13 committees which are advisory to NASA in a variety of fields, technical fields. Here again military members sit on those committees, as well as representatives of educational institutions and industrial companies.

Finally, at all levels through the organization, the working levels in these programs, our people are interchanging daily information on the programs.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Do you feel that you are getting a free flow of information from the military side as to their progress?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. And the military side is getting complete information from your organization as to what your scientists are developing?

Dr. GLENNAN. We are trying to; yes.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. And that there is no particular duplication of activity?

Dr. GLENNAN. I think that there is no particular duplication of activity which we have not agreed to be useful duplication.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Does your organization have any direction at all over the military's activities in its research and development program? Dr. GLENNAN. Not direction over them. They do carry out some of our research and development activities under our contract or under our technical direction.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. Your activities have not interfered in any way with the three military services?

Dr. GLENNAN. No, sir.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. And their activity.

Now, in respect to some of the questioning carried on by my colleague, Mr. Sisk from California, which is of terrific importance, that is the construction of engines to give us the thrust to put a payload into orbit. Naturally that is true when you are looking at it from your side and your activity, and that is for the welfare of humanity, that is where the big payload apparently comes in.

Now, is it not true that that is not as important when we come to thinking on the military side, if you would like to express your views one it, in carrying a payload of destructive power?

Dr. DRYDEN. The primary interest in the million and a half pound engine is for the space projects. We do recognize that this engine may find military applications, in military space projects. For that reason we have requested and there has been assigned to our organization an Air Force officer who will work with us in the direction of that project, to see that any military requirements are incorporated in the program. Mr. RIEHLMAN. One other question, Dr. Glennan: You have some

thing over 10,000 people under your Administration's activities. Where are they located throughout the United States?

Dr. GLENNAN. Mr. Siepert, of our staff, is going to give you a brief statement on the location of our particular organizations. But you will find them in California, in Ohio, in Virginia, and in—yes; I think those are the three principal locations.

Mr. RIEHLMAN. All right. Thank you very much.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wolf.

Mr. WOLF. Mr. Chairman, Dr. Glennan, I am Leonard Wolf, of Iowa. Right or wrong, some people are saying what the Russian Communists really have in mind is to get us so wrapped up in this conquest of outer space that we are letting our national security lag. I am wondering if you might have an opinion on this at this time? Dr. GLENNAN. I think I have said earlier

Mr. WOLF. You have discussed it, I know.

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes. That we were attempting to be very careful to avoid interference with military programs, particularly in our discussions about the ABMA situation.

Mr. WOLF. You don't think there is any danger of part of our military security budget, then, being diverted to the space agency, in this question of the balanced budget?

Dr. GLENNAN. I think not.

Mr. WOLF. All right. The other question I would like to ask: You suggested that you have an education agency. Does your agency feel, in other words, to tell your story to the people, does your educational agency feel that the right story is being told to the people, or is this thing being glorified and glamorized out of its true proportion?

Dr. GLENNAN. Our NASA Public Information Office is under very strong compulsion, particularly from me, to make certain that what is being given to the public is factual information, it is not blown up and made a ballyhoo.

Mr. WOLF. Apparently I didn't make myself clear. I realize you are giving them the information you want to give them with all due respect to the press, but are they getting all that they should have?

Dr. GLENNAN. Through our organization, I think so; yes.

Mr. WOLF. The last question I have to ask has to do with Radio Free Europe and Voice of America broadcasts: Are we attempting through our broadcasting agency to tell these people behind the Iron Curtain of our accomplishments?

Dr. GLENNAN. Yes, sir; the United States Information Agency is working very closely with us on matters of that kind.

Mr. WOLF. I realize the Russian propaganda agencies are working in reverse. I realize the Communist agencies are working very hard to try and portray us as conquering space as a military thing and it is blown up out of its true proportion. I wonder if this is being done?

Dr. GLENNAN. I think we are working that out. USIA has a man detailed in our Public Information Office for just this purpose. The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Karth?

Mr. KARTH. Mr. Chairman, Doctor, I am Joe Karth, from Minnesota. I have a question. I was a little surprised this morning in