from the Nova the meeting of the Commission at Halicom-fax, and gave my evidence. Professor Hind in his report here notices my testimony, and endeavors to manufacture out of it something to support false deductions. He takes the exports to the United States, for the year 1872, from Prince Edward Island. Why he takes that particular year I cannot understand, but then he says:— "In this independent official statement we observe Senator Howlan's figures for mackerel not only correctly given, but the total amount of fish exported to the United States at $137,746, in place of Mr. Barry's $92,838 in 1872, returned by the Custom House officer worth. records of his "In effect, a Senator of the Dominion produces upon oath, before a court of justice, the own work and his Own Government in a distant Province, when that Province possessed jurisdiction over her Trade and Navigation Returns. Subsequently, in the same court of justice, an officer of the Dominion Customs Department at Ottawa, produces upon oath an alleged statistical statement of the same details, but differing altogether from the Senator's statement, and he declares that he has derived his results from the same source as the Senator himself." sult from that as Scotia fishery, and ᎳᎾ were pelled by force of circumstances to go to the United States or elsewhere to buy herring. On page 19, again, with regard to pickled halibut sent to the United States, he goes on to show that pickled halibut going to the United States from Nova Scotia was recorded at a certain rate; that pickled ha but going from New Brunswick was recorded at a different rate. That matter is very readily understood. At one particular season of the year halibut is very high, while at another season of the year it is very low, and other causes may combine to increase the lower prices. Now, again, with regard to the annual expense, it is true we have no internal revenue bureau connected with our Government here as they have in the United States. We have to depend altogether on the Customs and the Trade and Navigation returns. Under the circumstances it is surprising that our statistics are as accurate as they are. In the United States every man has to pay duty on his income, and there are supervisors on every mile of the coast taking evidence as to Now, the matter is very easily exthe exports and imports, and the value of plained. In Prince Edward Island the the fisheries, while we have to depend fisheries are mainly on the north side. altogether on our Trade and Navigation The prevailing winds during the fishing returns and Customs reports. Notwith-season are from the north-west. At instanding the facilities for compiling statis-tervals, possibly about three or four tics in the United States, I have no weeks, a very heavy blow comes on from hesitation in saying, from my experience the south-east or north-east. On such at all events, that if you were to examine them as critically as Professor Hind has examined those of this country, you might find them as imperfect in some particulars as our own. There may be inaccuracies from a variety of causes, but I do not think the charge of systematic fraud or inaccuracy can be borne out. It is a matter of notoriety, in connection with this fact, that after a comparison of both the returns of this Dominion and of the United States on this particular question, the difference in 27 years does not amount to much more than $100,000; proof sufficient that the statistics were very well attended to and very exactly taken. I know, so far as I am concerned, I was not a supporter of the Government which was in power at that time, but having been asked to give evidence as a public man before the Commission, I did so. I left my home, and attended When the occasions vessels loading off the north So "The thing is done in such a manner, that | for the service, under the supervision of the officer of the Customs Department at Professor Spencer H. Baird, who has in Ottawa triumphs in this court of justice, and use is made of his falsified figures. The two very able reports contributed a mass of statements cannot be true, and the Senator's information on the subject, second to statement is susceptible of verification." none, and of the most valuable data Why was it" susceptible of verification?" which can be relied on ; a mass of inforThe answer is obvious, because, then and mation that I am sure no other country there, I substantiated the statement I in the world could supply, and Professor gave by official documents, and he Hind himself furnished some information should have stated in his pamphlet the about the homes and haunts of the fish. reason which I gave, and not to try to accurate were the instruments find fault with the gentlemen who pre- they had on board the Speedwell that they pared the statistics from the only data were enabled to go to some particular they could get the returns from their part of the Gulf when there was a disown custom houses. Then he goes on pute about fish, to go down to the botfrom that to state that, if the statistics tom, and bring the identical fish up itself. are wrong in one particular, they are 1 can come to only one conclusion, that if wrong in the other. But he goes on anything of a very important nature in to show, from the records of Prince the interests of the American people Edward Island, that my statement is had been lost sight of, there were men correct. It certainly may be a pleasure well qualified indeed to supply it men to him to do so, but it is entirely beg- who have given great attention to the fishging the question. On page 29, in the ing interests, of illustrious men and mersame way, referring to oysters, he puts chants-highly accomplished merchants; the exports of oysters from New Bruns- and to think that they would allow their wick at 13,274 barrels. What the price case to be treated in such a way with the of oysters was in the United States very eniment men they had on the Comat that particular time I am at a loss to mission, I do not believe it can be know, but it may have so happened that verified if a committee is struck to investhere was a very large export of oysters tigate the matter. from Prince Edward Island to St. John, Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL · New Brunswick; that the oyster crop The hon. member from Halifax, who has in the United States was bad at that brought this matter under the notice of time, and where there was almost daily the House seems to have satisfied himcommunication between St. John and Bos-self that the statements which have been ton,it may possibly have been in the inter-made by Professor Hind are not entitled est of those engaged in the oyster business to credence, and that he is probably a at this time to ship to Boston from St. monomaniac on the subject of them. He John. There must be some commercial has also told us that almost all the perreason why this export appears in the re-sons who have been engaged in the turns. I fail to see that any case is made Fishery Commission have been in sue out here which cannot, with a very little cession attacked by this gentleman. If investigation, be satisfactorily reported the statements are therefore in themon, and I have no doubt that, if the Am-selves incredible, and the hon. gentleman erican Government thought it was of points out the reasons why he thinks sufficient weight and importance, cor- they are, and if the person himself is in respondence would be furnished on the state of mind that the hon. gentle man describes Hon. Mr. POWER ed that. I only suppos the matter. After the exhaustive evidence produced at that Commission from men acquainted with the Atlantic coast, from the United States, I do not believe that Hor. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELLthey would have allowed those sta- I must express my regret that he has tistics to go unchallenged. They had thought it proper in the exercise of his every sort of information they could get, discretion, to bring them before this and, to use a common expression, they House, because it cannot but have the left no stone unturned. The American effect of giving them a factitious importsteamer Speedwell was fitted up specially ance. The hon. gentleman says be does so because, although he does not himself believe, and although he thinks no person who has informed himself will believe, those statements, yet he is apprehensive the general public may Hon. Mr. POWER The hon gentleman does not refer to the fact that the statements have been made the subject of a debate and resolution in Congress. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL to the agent Chas. Dilke, it seems to me that it would have been much better on our part to have allowed the matter to rest until those who were responsible for the conduct of the investigation should decide that they attach sufficient importance to these statements of Mr. Hind to take notice of them. The statistical information which was furnished for Great Britain before the Commission, at the request of the I see by the papers that that is the case, Imperial Government, by Canadian offibut they do not seem to have attracted cials, related to two subjects, trade and much notice or to have been at all be- fisheries. The former statistics were lieved in. So far as we are concerned, compiled from the returns which had it must be borne in mind that the fisher- been laid before the Canadian Legislaies arbitration under the provisions of lature, session after session, for twenty-six the Treaty of Washington was between years. One cannot suppose that the perHer Majesty's Government and that of sons engaged in compiling statistics durthe United States; that the Commis-ing all those years were in a conspiracy sioners were appointed by those Governments respectively; that the conduct of the case on our side was in the hands of a gentleman appointed by Her Majesty's Government; that the evidence marshalled by him; and that any returns which were furnished to him were put forward in the exercise of his discretion. The gentleman who acted as agent for Her Majesty's Government, Mr. Ford, formerly the Secretary of the British Legation at Washington, is well known to many members of Congress, who would hear the statements to which Hon. Mr. POWER the hon. gentleman has referred as hav-dred thousand dollars. ing been made in Congress. If there is any sound reason to distrust the reliability of any of the evidence offered under Mr. Ford's direction, it would be for the Imperial Government to take steps to test its accuracy, but we notice that the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, Sir Charles Dilke, when this matter was brought up in the Imperial House of Commons, a few days ago, said that he did not consider the statements of Mr. Hind as entitled to attention. was It would appear from the statement of the hon. gentleman that copies of Mr. Hind's pamphlets had been sent to Mr. Delfosse, the chairman of the Fisheries Commission, as well as to the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and in view of the letter to Mr. Hind from Mr. Delfosse, which the hon. gentleman has read, and of the silence of both the English and American Governments, as well as of the statement made by Sir to prepare false returns to be used in the fisheries investigation; and not only is this the fact, but before being placed in the hands of the agent of the Imperial Government they were collated with statistical returns of the United States for the same period, and as the hon. gentleman (Mr. Power) has pointed out, the comparison of the returns of the two countries for the long period of twentysix years only showed a difference of a few thousand dollars, strongly establishing the correctness of both. Not one hun Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL. With reference to the fisheries returns, the Census Commissioners collected and care compiled. It was the only check which The sug Hon. Dr. ALMON I have been appealed to by the senior member for Halifax to express an opinion as to the mental condition of Prof. Hind. I should copied from a book that he himself had like to know what Mr. Hind was paid written on the North-West, thereby for his attendance on this Commission, accusing the reverend gentleman, through and what he claimed. If these facts were the press, of stealing his squaw. Anyplaced before me I could understand the body who knows Mr. Grant must be animus which induced him to attack his aware that he would not be guilty of countrymen and his country, and to anything of that kind. The statistics of endeavor to throw on us the blame of the fisheries must have been very diffihaving over-reached the Americans, and cult to get hold of. We all know what thereby incurred the same shame that fish stories are. The first recorded is that the Americans did in the Ashburton of Jonah and the whale. Of course I Treaty, in which they concealed the map believe the whole story, as I do any told with the red line, and gained a territory me by my friends. When any of my friends which no American can pass by without go fishing, they tell me of the big salmon a blush of shame at the scandalous man- that they hooked and which escaped, and ner in which it was obtained. If these those escaped fish are never less than statements of Prof. Hind's were true, we thirty or forty pounds. How could they should willingly give up all that we have weigh them? They had not even the gained by the award of the Fisheries fishes' own scales for the purpose. These Commission. But I do not think that statistics are furnished by local officers, there was anything unfair about the and I know, during the short time I award. With regard to the speech of represented the County of Halifax, there the senior member for Halifax, I think were but few of them fit for their situathe hon. leader of the House has been tions, though it must be confessed their rather hard on him. My hon. colleague pay was very small. Their reports has brought up the matter fairly. I was showed more fish caught than there were afraid at first that he was going to endorse in the river. If the hon. Senator from the calumnies brought against our pub- Lunenburg were asked about the number lic men concerned in the award. Those of salmon caught in his County we would men are not of the same politics as my- believe him, but I have no doubt he self, but I believe that any Nova Scotians, would not put the quantity down at less whether they be Grit or Conservative, than it was, and, therefore, I think the would scorn to use anything in a treaty statistics of the fisheries from the time with another country which was not fair of Jonah downward, are to be received and above board. When my hon. friend cum grano salis, without any suspicion of commenced his speech, I thought that wilful or criminal misrepresentation bethe Irish blood in him led him to exem-ing attached to them. With regard to plify the verse of the old song "He meets the value of the fish caught on our coast, with his friend and for love knocks him we can put Prof. Hind and others out of down"-for every statement of Hind's the question. For one Sunday during that he read he immediately afterwards which the Americans were prevented proved to be false. As the hon. Senator from taking fish at Fortune Bay, they from Prince Edward Island (Mr. Hay- claim $103,000. It is possible that the thorne) has told us, Prof. Hind has occu- fish might take the bait more freely on pied a great many honorable positions, Sunday than any other day, but if the but I think he has always been a very claim of the Americans is valid, then I quarrelsome man. The Rev. George think Prof. Hind may hang up his fiddle Grant, who travelled through the North- and his bow, they having settled the West, aud published a book on the sub-question of value themselves. Although ject, was, while in Halifax, idolized by the senior member for Halifax introduced men of all religious denominations, and in this part of the Dominion, where he has been living for the past two or three years, he has the same standing that he had with us. In his book, among other illustrations, was a picture of a Cree What did Prof. Hind accuse him of He stated this engraving was squaw. this matter very fairly before the House, I do not think it would be worth while to give an importance to Professor Hind's statements which I assure you is not attached to them in Nova Scotia, and 1 think we can take up our time with more useful matters than the statements of this disappointed man who, doubtless, thinks that he did not get as much as he was to believe there must have been some entitled to receive for his services, fraud or unfair means used to prevent them having the success which had always attended them in former negotiations with the British Government. 1 think that is probably the way the matter will be looked at by the bulk of the Hon. Mr. POWER The hon. Senator from Lunenburg thought proper to in troduce the political element into the discussion, which I had carefully avoided. He tried to represent that if anything wrong had been done it was done under the late Administration, and that the late the Minister of Marine and Fisheries was responsible man. Professor Hind does not contend that the Minister himself falsified the documents. He spoke of the subordinates in the Departments of Cus tous and Marine and Fisheries having done it. Consequently, my hon. friend's point was altogether astray. I am sorry that this matter has come up; but I do not think it has been brought up any too soon, and I cannot at all agree with the bon. knight who leads the Government in this House in thinking there is anything improper in bringing the matter before the Senate. I Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL said I regretted it being a matter of dis cussion. -- American people. I do not consider that notice of the matter, and getting an The motion was agreed to. The Senate adjourned at 5.35 p.m. sideration. There are officers of the Government in whose probity I have the utmost confidence. I would no more believe them capable of falsifying public Hon. Mr. POWER The hon. gen- documents than of cutting their own tleman says we should not give this man throats. These men are in some cases an importance which he does not deserve. mentioned, and in others pointed out by I do not want it to be The fact is that almost every newspaper Professor Hind. you take up has something about Profes-understood that I am acting on their sor Hind's statements. I do not know behalf at all, but it seems to me it is only Professor Hind; I have not the good fair to them that they should be cleared fortune to be acquainted with him; but of any suspicion of having acted improthe people of the United States do not perly. Their characters should be like know him at all. They only know that Caesar's wife. he is a man who has held a certain number of important positions under this Government, and that he held a position of trust in connection with the Fisheries Commission, having been employed both by the United States and Canadian agents. The natural inference would be that Professor Hind is a respectable mau. This man, who occupied that comparatively independent and impartial position with reference to the two parties, having been appointed by both, makes the statement that in the papers put into his hands he discovered certain falsifications. That is a serious charge; and the people of the United States, not having come out of this inquiry before the Halifax Commission in the same triumphant manner they came ont of other dealings with the British Government, would naturally be inclined THE SENATE. Prayers and routine proceedings. LAVAL UNIVERSITY. RETURN. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL laid on the table of the House a further return to an address for papers relative to Laval University, and in doing so desired to state that the motion of the hon. Senator from La Valliere (Dr. |