Hon. Mr. SCOTT- Give them light wines. Hon. Mr. VIDAL I think this House cannot, consistently with its recently declared views, adopt this clause without adding that beer, cider and light wines are excepted. gone to a considerable expense and taken | Within a few days the House has dea great deal of pains to teach them to cul-clared that the health, happiness, and tivate the soil, and the way in which prosperity of the people are promoted by this legislation will be presented to the the use of ales, porter and light wines, mind of the Indian is that, after having and that it is tyranny and oppression to encouraged him in habits of industry and say to white people they shall not be perthrift, you are to tell him in the same mitted to use those drinks. Yet what breath that he is not to make use of the do we find here? We find this tyranny products of the soil for barter. To the and oppression exercised over the wards untutored mind there is an inconsistency of the Government, those over whom in that. Then, with regard to the re- we should exercise the greatest serves, by this legislation you prevent care. the Indians from cutting a certain description of timber. It may be all very well, and for my own part I have very great confidence in the ability and discretion of the present Indian Commissioner, but I think the Government will have to ex ercise great care to avoid, if possible creating any bad feeling on the part of those people. We have got on so well with them thus far that I think it is not desirable by tightening the lines of legislation to make them feel themselves in a worse position than they are. So much for the general character of the Bill. As for clause 10, referred to by the hon. member from British Columbia, it cannot, I think, pass in its present shape. The same object can be carried out without interfering with the local laws of the provinces. We have no power to appoint a justice of the peace; that power rests with the local authorities, yet you propose here to make certain persons ex officio justices of the peace. The object of this, I take it, is to give those persons the powers of a justice of the peace in carrying out this Act? Hon. Mr. AIKINS Certainly. Hon. Mr. DICKEY - If it is confined to that there can be no objection to amending the clause in this sense. Hon. Mr. VIDAL - Is this Act intended to apply to the whole Dominion or to the North-West Territories? Hon. Mr. HAYTHORNE - I assume, from the introduction of this Bill, the House may infer that the Govern ment have really made some solid progress towards educating the Indians in the art of agriculture. If so, it is a matter on which we may fairly congratulate the country. I am not surprised that it should be found necessary to initiate some regulations of the kind referred to in the second clause of this Bill. I have had some little experience of Indians in former times myself, and I am quite aware that it is sometimes necessary to take measures to prevent them from making away with the produce of their land. It the Government undertake to pass such a law as this, it should be with the understanding that the state of tutelage of the Indians should be done away with as soon as possible, for it seems to me to have rather a tendency to lower the Indian mind than to raise it. The object of the Government being, I presume, to place the Indian as speedily as possible in the ranks of the ordinary population of the country, they must see that that object cannot be attained by treating the Indian as a minor, as this Hon. Mr. AIKINS. It is general Bill does. now in its provisions. Hon. Mr. VIDAL I share the objection entertained by the hon. Senator from Amherst as to the interference with the action of the provinces in appointing justices of the peace. I think there is another section the eighth which cannot be expected to pass this House. I have recently seen A blue book emanating from the Indian Bureau of the United States, and although we have been generally accustomed to understand that the Indians of that country have not been as kindly treated, or as fairly treated as the Canadian Indians have been, yet I believe that a change has taken place in that respect within the last two or three years, and I would ask if ernment to put a stop to it as far as posthe members of the Government have sible by having the reserve surveyed. had their attention drawn to the pro- The survey of the reserve was finished ceedings of the Indian Bureau at Wash-last summer, and after determining of ington? I have every reason to believe what the reserve consists it will that very important progress has been be less different to deal with the made, by our neighbors in their treatment troubles which then exist. It is not of the Indians. I think they have done in the interests of the Government to pretty nearly all that we have done and keep the Indians in a state of tutelage if are doing in their treatment of the In- they can be enfranchised. In the Northdians with regard to agriculture, and in West, where we may have to feed them, some respects they have gone further and may have to do so for some time to than we have done. They have made come, the Government is endeavoring to some attempt to break up the tribal re employ them in all sorts of public works lation, and make the Indians part of the that are going on. Even though their population. They have been very suc- work may not be of any great importcessful during the last year or two in an- ance, still it is better to have them emother way, to which I call particular at-ployed at anything rather than to contention. It is stated that the Bureau tinue as paupers. The object is to try has succeeded in employing the Indians and make the Indians self supporting, in the transport of supplies and stores and relieve the country of the present belonging to the Department to the dif- burden. That is the object of the Govferent forts and depots in their North- ernment, and I think it is a very laudWest. The Department has loaded the able one. stores on to wagons belonging to the Department and the Indians have drawn them to their destination with their own horses. I think this is putting the Indian to a use that is in conformity with his peculiar habits, and it seems to me, calculated to develop his best qualities. I would simply suggest to the members of the Government, if they have not seen this particular blue book to which I refer, it might be worth their while to inquire for it. Hon. Mr. DEVER I was under the impression that the policy of the United States was to exterminate their Indians, and I was surprised to hear the statement of my hon. friend from Prince Edward Island, that, instead of that being the policy of the United States, they were endeavoring to civilize the Indians. Sitting Bull has been induced to leave I fail to see, however, that our country for better protection, better lands, and more kindly treatment from Hon. Mr. AIKINS-I have not had It strikes me they feel that Canada is the people on the other side of the line. an opportunity of seeing the report to doing for them somewhat better and which the hon. gentleman refers, but I more satisfactorily than the United have no doubt that the officers of the States would, or else they would be disDepartment whose duty it is to look posed to go back again. I have no obafter such matters have seen it. As to the Indians of the United States for- Government of Canada towards the jection whatever to the policy of the warding supplies to the reserves with Indians, and I hope they will continue it. their own horses, I may say that our The Indians are, to a large extent, deown Indians in the North-West, when pendent upon the white people of this they received their ploughs and harrows country, and I think it is our duty, as far as provided by treaty at a certain place, as we are able, to afford them every protook them away in their own convey-tection, and teach them the arts of civiances to the reserve. With reference to -he point raised by my hon. friend from De Lorimier about the Caughnawauga Indians, that matter has been before the Government for a long time. It has been going on between the Indians themselves and between the Indians and The following Bills were reported from whites; and it was thought by the Gov- Committee of the Whole without lization. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read the second time. THIRD READINGS. Hon. Mr. AIKINS moved the second reading of Bill (78) "An Act to amend the Act 40 Victoria, chapter 2, intituled 'An Act to amend and consolidate the · Acts respecting the Customs.'" He said: This Bill has been introduced to amend the Customs Laws in several particulars, the first of which is to be able to more definitely decide as to the damage of goods by water, so that there may be a rebate with regard to the customs duties. a There is new provision in it, and that is with reference to damage to goods imported into Canada by railway or other land conveyance. That is a principle that has not been embodied in the present Customs Act. It also makes provision with regard to the mode of appraizement of this damage, and how the original value of the goods is to be determined. It also makes provision to remove doubts which have arisen as to the persons who in the outside service were empowered to administer oaths. It also makes provision defining the officers in the inside service before whom oaths may be taken in the settlement or adjustment of difficulties with the Department. It gives power to the Governor in Council that he may, by regulation, authorize the alteration of the form of oath in the schedule of this Act. Under the present law the oath may be abbreviated, but the form substantially must remain unchanged. Nothing can be added to it. It also makes provision that, with regard to the value of goods, if the owner or consignee thinks they are valued too high by the appraizer, two merchants may be called in and they may appraize the goods. Under the present law the appraizer or collector comes in and makes the final to two merchants and to the Commissioner of Customs? Hon. Mr. AIKINS As to the value of the goods on which the duty is assessed, it is taken out of the hands of the appraizer and referred to the Commissioner of Customs as I have described, who will be considered more independent than the appraizer who had already given a decision. Hon. Mr. REESOR At whose expense would the appeal be made? Hon. Mr. AIKINS If the appraizer's views are sustained, the expense will fall on the party who calls in the merchants, but if the decision is against the appraizer the expense will fall on the Government. It has been found that in that the working of the outside service of the Department, goods were frequently 'allowed by the collector to go out of the warehouse without the payment of the duty, and losses have been sustained in way. This is amended by the Provision is also made present measure. in this Bill that the Governor in Council may make regulations for the ex-warehousing of goods the duties on which would be less than $20. By the present law no goods can be taken out of exwarehouse unless the duties are equal to $20 unless the duty on original entry for warehouse was less than that amount. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read the second time. SAVINGS BANKS LAWS AMENDMENT RILL. SECOND READING. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL moved the second reading of Bill (83) "An Act further to amend an Act respecting certain savings banks in the Provinces ct Ontario and Quebec, and to continue for a limited time the charters of certain banks to which the said Act applies." He said: This Bill is not complete in one respect. It has been suggested to the Government that it would be better that the savings banks should be compelled to make certain returns in the same way as ordinary banks, but the schedule which answers the purpose with reference to ordinary banks is not adapted to the savings banks, and, therefore, we propose to try and form a schedule which will be more consonant with the business to be done by savings banks, and as this schedule will not be eady for the House until to-morrow, if the House would allow the Bill to be read the second time now, and take the discussion to-morrow, in the meantime I will lay upon the table of the House the form of return which the Government proposes to adopt. Hon. Mr. SCOTT. Was it not an expressed opinion last year that in any further legislation extending the time of savings banks doing ordinary business there should be some legislation, and that an opportunity should be afforded for discussing the whole subject? It is rather late, at this period of the session, for doing so. This Bill proposes to extend the powers of savings banks for ten years. Hitherto the limitation has been for some period considerably less than that. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL There has only been one extension, and that was last session, an extension for a year. It was done for the purpose of giving consideration to objections which, if they were well founded, would show the necessity of amending the Bill in the direction to prevent savings banks from investing in certain kinds of securities. If that is the point which is to be raised on this section by my hon. friend, I will be prepared to discuss it when the Bill is before us with the schedules. The motion was agreed to, and the Bill was read the second time. Hon. Mr. DICKEY - I was going to suggest to my hon. friend that this is a Bill somewhat novel in its character. It proposes to extend the operation of an Act which has been passed by another legislature, containing a great many sections one of the longest Acts on the statute book, and this Bill has only been brought to our notice at the last sitting of this House. In dealing with such an important measure as this, members should have time to consider it, and I hope my hon. friend will allow the Bill to stand for a couple of days in order that we may have an opportunity to read it. Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE — As I intend to move an amendment which will have the effect of giving more information to the House on this Bill, I hope my hon. friend will not press the second reading now. My motion is, that this Bill be not now read the second time, but that it be referred, with the Act of Quebec— cap. 60, referred to in this Bill - incorporating the Credit Foncier Franco-Canadien, to the judges of the Supreme Court, asking their honors' opinion on the constitutionality of the Bill, and of the Act of the Province of Quebec. If I can show that there are grave doubts as to the constitutionality of the Quebec Act, it would be better not to pass the second reading We Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELLare not in a position very well to appreciate what my hon. friend is going to argue, as we have not read the Bill. Would it not be better to take the suggestion of the hon. gentleman from Amherst? Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE We have not the Quebec Act before us, which is the charter of the Company, and it cannot be had probably for a week, but, if I can show that this Quebec charter the extension of which is asked for, is unconstitutional, would it not be prudent for us to refer it to the Supreme CREDIT FONCIER FRANCO-CANADIEN Court Judges, as we have the right to do BILL. SECOND READING POSTPONED. We by the 55th rule of this House. should then be in a better position to judge whether we shall give this Com Hon. Mr. GIBBS moved the second reading of Bill (31) "An Act to en-pany the extension which it asks. large and extend the powers of the Credit Foncier Franco-Canadien." Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL-We can hardly decide whether it is best to refer it to the Supreme Court until we regard to this matter. have read the Bill. - Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE There is no motion to have their charter before us, and we will be no better informed two or three days hence if there is no motion to have the Act submitted to us. He says that there are no copies of the Quebec statute to be referred to. If that is the case, how is it possible that the judges of the Supreme Court can possess themselves of the necessary knowledge of the provisions of that Act? Then there is the difficulty of referring an Act of the Local Legislature to the Supreme Court judges for an opinion. I do think, under all the circumstances, that the course Hon. Mr. DɛBOUCHERVILLE which has been suggested by me and There are only two copies in the library. adopted by the leader of the GovernI can cite the objections which are urged ment, is the one that ought to be folagainst the Quebec Act and Ilowed; and the motion to refer the Bill think after that hon. gentlemen will be will be quite in order on the second in a position to decide whether it will reading. not be better to refer it to the Supreme Court. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL-We have the statutes of Quebec. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL I do not see how my hon. friend can ex pect members of this House, particularly members of the legal profession, to agree that the reference should be made to the Supreme Court until they have had some opportunity of studying the question. The reference to the Supreme Court is, of course, in the power of the House, but the House should decide whether the reference should be made, and in this particular instance in order to decide they must have the Bill and other papers to which it alludes. It Hon. Mr. DEBOUCHERVILLE The Credit Foncier Franco-Canadian Company have taken good care to get a Bill exactly the same as the one that was asked from this Parliament and from the Ontario Legislature, so that, if by some means or other this Bill should not pass, the Company have all the powers they ask by their local Acts. we postpone the examination of this Bill, we will have to postpone at the same time the examination of the Bill of the Credit Foncier of the Dominion. The objection is that if the Bill of the Credit Foncier of the Dominion is postponed, the Franco-Canadien Company will have secured all that it requires -a fifty years' privilege in Quebec. Hon. gen tlemen will have seen how hard they fought in the other House to prevent the second Company from getting what it asked. Hon. Mr. PENNY -- If I understand the question right, there is one clause in the Quebec Act which I think it would be very imprudent for this Legislature to sanction. It gives a monopoly to this Company, as far as France is concerned, for the whole period of its existence — fifty years. It provides that no other French company can operate in the Province of Quebec during the time for which this charter runs. It seems to me that that in itself ought to put us on our guard as to how far we should ho mologate such a principle as that in this Legislature. I think such a monopoly as that is particularly objectionable. Hon. Mr. GIBBS - I do not think this House can deal with the legislation of the Province of Quebec in the way suggested. That provision applies only to the Province of Quebec. They either had the right or they had not (as the Supreme Court may hereafter deter mine) to pass such a clause, and, if they had, then of course that is the end of it. This Bill has no such clause in it, as the hon. gentleman states, and sending it to the Supreme Court at this late period of the session would virtually throw the Bill out. Perhaps that is the object of the hon. gentleman from Montarville. This is not the first Bill of the kind that has been passed by the Parliament of Canada; there are a good many others on the sta tute book at present of a similar character, and if I ain allowed to quote the best authorities in another place, the first legal minds of the Dominion, I find that they have given their opinions unhesita |