seems to be taken for granted that when-, tice the number of superannuate: ever the legislature of any province of judges. I think there are ten or eleven the Dominion thinks proper to increase in the Province of Quebec. the number of the provincial judges, this i Parliament is obliged to find the salaries of those judges. Now, I think it is time that the Government took into its serious consideration the result which is going to follow from the unlimited ad mission of such a doctrine. Hon. Mr. SCOTT — Hear, hear. Hon. Mr. MILLER I do not think it is at all consistent with the spirit or letter of the British North America Act that this Parliament is not justified in exercising an absolute control over all increases of the judiciary by refusing to provide the salaries unless we are convinced of the necessity of such additions, regardless of the views or wishes of the local legislatures. I think myself it is an anomaly in our constitution, and a very unfortunate one, that the power of creating judges is given to the provincial legislatures, which have no responsibility whatever with regard to the payment of their salaries; for we all know there is nothing so likely to limit the exercise or abuse of such a power as the obligation of providing means to pay for the judges. I am sorry to say, on all occasions when ૧. before Hon. Mr. BUREAU ticing at the bar One is prac Hon. Mr. MILLER Some of these judges, I understand to be as strong and able to perform their usual work as ever they were much more so than many men I know of who are on the bench today. This superannuation business is getting to be a serious matter. There is a great deal of unjust and unreasonable animadversion made on the profession to which I have the honor of belonging, but I do think that in connection with this question there will be a good deal of room in a very short time for very decided feelings in Parliament, an out of it, if these changes are allowed to go much further. Hon. Mr. TRUDEL-As I have some personal knowledge of what takes place in the courts of the Province of Quebec, I may say that what has been stated by my hon. friend is to a certain extent inaccurate. It is incorrect to say that the appointment of these two judges is unnecessary; on the contrary, it is essential to the proper working of our courts. It is the common opinion, and it is to my certain knowledge, that to ensure the perfect working of the courts in Montreal three more judges are required in the Superior Court. I venture to say there is no part of the Dominion, and perhaps, no part of the world, where judges have so much to do as in the City of Montreal. Hon. Mr. MILLER-How is it in the outside districts? bill of this kind comes the House, it seems to be taken for granted by the Government of the day that it is the unavoidable duty of the Government to provide the salaries of any judges that the local legislatures may choose to create. I do not speak now with regard to the judgeships more particularly under the notice of the Committee, but all creations of this kind. We know the influences which can be brought to bear to create those positions in all the Hon. Mr. TRUDEL Each judge in provinces, so long as there is no responsi- Montreal renders twice as many judgbility for the payment of their salaries ments-sometime three times as manyby the local legislatures. If the doc-as any judge in any other part of Canada. trine which has been all along accepted I have not the statistics before me, but on this subject is understood in this country to be the rule which is to prevail under the Constitution, I think it is high time that the Government should seek a remedy for the abuse (I think it is a fair word) which ultimately I do not say it is now the case this divided authority will certainly lead to. I think there is another cause of complaint in relation to the cost of the administration of jus they have been published from time to time, and can easily be procured. The hon. gentleman says he was told by a member of the bar of Quebec that this increase of judges might be avoided. I do not deny that, and I will explain how it could be done. For two or three years past the bar of the Province has given serious consideration to this question of the administration of justice, with a view He was to improving the working of our tri- because under the existing state of affairs, bunals, especially in the City of Mon- owing to the fact that the judges in treal,and they have come to the conclusion Montreal are too busy to furnish a supthat even the appointment of an addi-plementary judge for the Court of tional judge for the Superior Court Appeals when one is required, the Chief would not be sufficient. Believing that Justice is obliged to call in judges from it would be very diflicult to obtain the rural districts, and in such cases the appointment of three more judges, some latter are allowed so much per day and members of the bar proposed to abolish travelling expenses. If you take into a certain number of the judicial districts account the sums which are thus paid, you in the Province, or change the law and will find that they amount to more than deprive those districts of their judges. the sixth judge of the Court of Appeals Some of those districts are very large will receive. The hon. gentleman referfor instance, Saguenay and Gaspe but red to the number of superannuated few cases arise in them. They proposed judges, some of whom, he sees to think, to take the judges from such districts were allowed to retire prematurely. Out and add them to the judiciary in other of the whole number only two are in districts, and by this change they thought perfect health. There are three who, that twenty-six judges would be sub-strictly speaking, might serve again on cient. Now, the present division of the the bench. One of them, Judge Day, is Province by districts has existed for nearly eighty years of age. many years. It existed before Cot.fed-appointed on the Commission to codify eration, and the experience of the other our laws from 1860 to 1867, and, after House shows that you can hardly touch the completion of that work was superthe question of depriving existing dis- annuated. Notwithstanding his age he tricts of their judges without raising a still enjoys good health. The other, who feeling of indignation among the people is the hon. judge who is alluded to as of those districts. In fact, the change practising at the bar is not by any means cannot be made without causing real in- in perfect health, though he might be able justice. Though some of those judges to act on the bench, but under the law he have not much to do, their presence in was entitled to superannuation, and he those districts has a tendency to prevent retired. Another one is, it is true, in disorders, and has a good moral effect on good health, but unfortunately is deaf, the population. Those districts existed and he was forced to accept superannuabefore Confederation, and when Quebec | tion on that account. These are the only entered the Union the Federal Govern- cases to which my hon. friend could have ment undertook to pay the salaries of alluded, because all the other superannuthe judges. An additional judge in theated judges are unfit, from failing health, Superior Court of Montreal is an abso-to discharge the duties of the office. In lute necessity. As to the Court of Ap-the past they rendered valuable service peal, some of the judges are old men, to the country, and no one can blame the and, the work being very heavy, they Government for having superannuated are frequently sick. It happens every them. Now, as to the number and reterm, in fact, every two or three days, muneration of the judges in the Province: that the Court is unable to sit, unless ait is true that those in Montreal and substitute can be got for any of the Quebec receive $5,000 each, and all the judges who may happen to be sick or others, with one or two exceptions, redisqualified, or unfit to take his seat ceive $4,000 each but we have only from some other cause. We have not twenty-six judges of the Superior Court, enough judges in the Superior Court, and thirty-two of all jurisdictions, while and they are so busy that none of them in Ontario there are more than can replace a judge of the Court of Ap-sixtypeals who may be unable to sit. The consequence is that sometimes four or An Hon. Member - The County five days are lost during the term. Court judges are forty-seven. Now, the appointment of a sixth judge to the Court of Queen's Bench Hon. Mr. TRUDEL I have not the will not materially augment the expense, precise figures before. me, but I know that they are much more numerous and | been established. I must say that I was that their salaries taken altogether astonished when the Supreme Court Act amount to much more than than those of was passed. From 1867 to 1873, the the Quebec judges, so that the amount Government of Sir John A. Macdonald paid in salaries cannot be complained of. | brought that Bill before Parliament every Now, as to the local authorities augment- year, and I was one of those who went ing the number of judges, and the Do- to Sir John Macdonald and Sir George minion Government paying the salaries, E. Cartier, and told them that if they it inust be borne in mind that Confedera- proposed the second reading of that Bill tion would not have been accepted with- I should be obliged to use my utmost out that condition. The late Govern- exertions to defeat it. It was only after ment, as well as the present Administra- Mr. Mackenzie's Government came into tion consented to necessary additions to power that is. to say, the the judiciary. If we want the federal party who, in both Houses had system to work harmoniously, we ought always opposed the Conservative Govto consider the provincial authorities erumont on that question that the competent to decile as to the number of Act was passed. Having friends that judges requisite to administer the laws. they wanted to place on the bench, no I do not think, therefore, that there is doubt, they changed their views, and, as any abuse; at all events, it is a right one man, carried the Supreme Court recognized by the constitution. Bill. It will be remembered in this House there was only a majority of two in favor of the measure; and how was that majority secured? I recollect very well that it was then stated the late Mr. Letellier, in order to carry his point, had to ask some members of the Senate to leave the House, in order that he might have a majority. Therefore, I would be better to repeal the Supreme if we must practice economy, it judges, so that the public who have to Court Act, and give our provinces more furnish the revenue of the country might not be obliged to wait for months, and sometimes for years, to have their cases decided and to obtain justice. I am not a lawyer, but, looking at the judgments of the Supreme Court, I am forced to the conclusion that it is not worth its cost to the country; and if that money had been expended in the construction of railways, and deepening of canals, the public would have derived far more benefit from it. I Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL think the observations made by my hon. friend from Richmond are in many respects very just, and they deserve the serious consideration of the Government. The judiciary is increasing certainly in all the provinces, and it is an anomaly that the increase should be in the hands of one authority, and the payment in the hands of another. I do not know whether my hon. friend from DeSalaberry is quite right or not, but it is a question which ought to engage the attention of the Government, and, in consequence, what has been said I will take some opportunity, as early as possible, to bring under the notice of the Government in order to come to some definite view as to the policy which ought to be adopted. - Hon. Mr. BELLEROSE - I consider it would not be right to reduce the number of judges, because I have myself seen the difficulty experienced in the courts of Montreal, and other districts, by the scarcity of judges to attend to cases. If money is so scarce, and the public treasury is so low, that we have to refuse the demands of those who contribute to the public venue, we ought to economize in soine other direction. It is a well recognized fact that Parliament created a Supreme Court fifteen years before there was any necessity for it, and I am sure if we had not had so many lawyers in Parliament the Court would not have say, Hon. Mr. MILLER Ι go further than the hon. gentleman does, and admit that the expense of the judiciary is no argument at all against the creation of re-judges whenever they may be required, without having any reference whatever to the Supreme Court and the expenditure in connection with that tribunal. shall be ready at all times to go so far as to say that, no matter what it may cost, it is necessary that justice shall be efficiently administered in all parts of the I Dominion. This is one of the first duties | question for the serious investigation an i of the Government, and one of the first consideration of the Government. interests of society, and, therefore, justice Whether it might be wise to limit the must be administered no matter what it jurisdiction, in future, of that Court to may cost. It was for that reason that, questions of a purely federal character, when the Legislature of British or allow the present extended jurisdicColumbia, supported by represen- tion which prevails on mostly all questatives of that Province in the tions arising before the courts in the other branch of this Parliament, different provinces, is a subject on which thought fit to change their judiciary there is a very wide difference of opinand appoint five judges for a compara ion. Coming from an English speaking tively small population, I was one of province, I think I express the feeling those who supported the measure brought which prevails in Nova Scotia, New down by the Government to carry out Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, that change. But we should be satisfied when I say that the Court is before we create new judgeships that the a necessity, and has, SO far, wants of the country and nothing else given satisfaction in its decisions are at the bottom of the claims which are to those provinces. Now, with regard made upon us. Now, with regard to the to the expense of that Court, if we are Supreme Court, I was one of those who to have such a tribunal at all, I do not voted for its establishment, and I must think it would be possible to have insay I regret very much the expression augurated it under more economical which has fallen from my hon. friend, conditions than those which exist, but I and the opinion which is entertained by am inclined to think that that Court has many hon. gentlemen in this branch of already, in connection with the adjudicathe legislature and in another, in refer- tion of heavy claims against the Federal ence to the utility of that court. Government, saved to the country, perI, however, have never seen any haps, more than the whole cost of its reason to change the opinion that maintenance for many years to come. I I entertained as to the necessity, under am of opinion that by the intervention of our Federal system of Government, of a that Court in the settlement of heavy Supreme Court for the Dominion, if we claims against the Government in conexpected the Confederation to exist or nection with important public works, and the authority of the laws to be upheld. the application by that Court of strict I say it is a necessity under the system legal principles to such claims, the Doof Government which we have established minion has been saved a very large that the laws of the supreme Federal amount of money. I understand Parliament should not be dependent from what has taken place in for their Construction upon the local benches of provinces. It is necessary for many reasons that there should be a high Court of Appeal for this Dominion. There is so much likelihood to be a clashing of authority between the Federal and Provincial Legislatures, that, for that reason alone, some supreme tribunal is required to reconcile conflicting decisions. I regret to find such a strong hostility in the Province of Quebec to that tribunal. I do not know whether there is any just cause for it or not. I do not attempt to pass any opinion upon that point, yet I cannot shut my eyes to the fact that where the feeling is so unanimous and deep seated in that important Province against the Supreme Court, that it is a serious cause for regret, and should be a another quarter that it is the intention of the Government during the coming recess to give that question consideration, and I feel that it is due to the Province of Quebec that the dissatisfaction which exists there with regard to the Supreme Court, should receive full investigation. If any alteration can be made which will remove the present complaints, I am sure the Government will be disposed to make it. I do not think any party in particular is to blame for creating that Court. The leaders of both parties have always considered it necessary. The introduction of such a measure by Sir John Macdonald several sessions before he went out of power in 1873, shows that he must have considered that Court necessary, although difficulties stood in his way in regard to the establishment of it. If I am not much mistaken, when when the Bill was before Parliament the right hon. gentleman gave the Government of the day all the assistance in his power in maturing the measure, and received from the Minister of Justice, in Mr. Mackenzie's Government, a public expression of thanks for the great assistance he had afforded them in connection with the measure; so much, indeed, that the Minister of Justice declared from his place in Parliament that he would hardly have undertaken the task at all, butfor the mature condition in which he found the subject in the Bills which had previously been submitted to Parliament by his predecessor in office. I would and the frequent divisions in the Court must excite general distrust in other provinces. Therefore, I contend if it must exist the Court should deal simply with exchequer cases and constitutional questions. Even as to constitutional questions, though I am not a lawyer, I have my own judgment (and I sometimes think it is pretty good), and some of their decisions have seemed to me wrong. Believing, as many others do, that the Court is undeserving of public confidence, I believe that the expense which it entails is lost to the country. Hon. Mr. McMASTER, from the Committee, reported the Bill without amendment. The Bill was then read the third time and passed. CONSOLIDATED INSURANCE ACT IN COMMITTEE. The House went into Committee of the the Consolidated Insurance Act, 1877." Whole on Bill (P) "An Act to amend Hon. Mr. BELLEROSE be ready to adopt the hon. gentleman's views so far as the Exchequer Court is concerned. That Court may be a necessity, but I am opposed to the Supreme Court as a court of appeal. Is there any one man in any province of the Dominion who can conscientiously say that he is satisfied with the decisions of that tribunal, when we see cases which had been decided in one way by the unanimous opinion of the judges of the provincial courts reversed by a bare majority in the Supreme Court here? What fidence can we have in the decisions of a court two of whose members declare the NAVIGATION CORRESPONDENCE BILL. judgment of the three others to be wrong. When a man is obliged to pay con Hon. Mr. MONTGOMERY, from the Committee, reported the Bill without amendment. five or six thousand dollars because the SECOND READING. Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL moved the second reading of Bill (57) "An Act to provide for the correspondence of certain provisions of the Act respecting the navigation of Canadian waters with the provisions for like purposes in force in the United Kingdom." He said: Prior to the last session of Parliament there was a law on the statute books, passed in 1868, respecting the navigation of Canadian waters. That law provided that open fishing boats should not be required to carry side lights, but if they did that they should have slide. That was altered in 1880 to meet and run with the change made by the Imperial Parliament in their law upon the subject of vessels carrying lights. Power was taken in the English Act to postpone the operation of it in case it was found desirable to do so. causes, By proclamation of |