encumbered with the payment of an in- the details of the expenditure and the spector. nature of the special services therein mentioned. He said: It is with a great Hon. Mr. AIKINS Neither does deal of reluctance I approach this subject. the brewer. Hon. Mr. REESOR All these things require a certain amount of inspection and expense, and the fewer restrictions there are placed on the trade the better. There is another reason why the tax should be on the beer rather than upon malt, whether it is for brewing or for export. If you put a high duty upon malt, you place in the way of the brewer a temptation to use glucose, and other substances often less wholesome, in order to save the use of malt. If the malt is allowed to be purchased free, there will be little temptation for the brewer to use improper substances in the manufacture of beer. Then, so far as illicit distilling is concerned, I think it makes very little difference whether the duty is placed on malt or not, because wheat, rye, corn, or malt will produce whiskey. The same risks will be run, and the same efforts will be made to carry on illicit distillation, whether there is a duty on malt or not. The only way to prevent illicit distillation of whiskey, is not to place the duty on spirits so high as to tempt persons to incur great risk in breaking the law, on account of the large profit they would make if they escape punish ment. I had, on a previous occasion, the honor to put some questions to the Government relative to the mission of Senator Fabre A to France, and what was the expense incurred by that mission. The reply of the Government on that occasion was that the hon. gentleman did not represent the Governmen, that he had no mission to the Government of France, and, consequently, there was no public. expense incurred on his account. short time after receiving this reply. I had occasion to look at the Supplementary Estimates, in which I found (item 60) a sum of $2,931 that had been paid to the Hon. Senator Fabre for expenses connected with special services in France. 1 was under the impression that it was not the first item of this kind connected with the name of that gentleman, and, on referring to the Debates of last year, I found that the hon. gentleman from De Lorimier is reported, at page 83, as having made a similar inquiry, in which he stated that three different sums of $500, that is $1,500, had been paid to the same gentleman. The reply of the hon. Iderea of the Government on that occasion was that he saw nothing unconstitutional in it, and nothing but what was worthy of praise that a member of this House should have an opportunity to render some service to this country. In order not to misrepresent what the hon. Minister said on that occasion, the House will allow me to quote his remarks as reported in the Debates: "It is not an unusual thing to ask a member of Parliament to undertake a public duty of this Hon. Mr. AIKINS The Governkind, or at all events, a similar kind. The ment are so well aware of some of the opportunities which members of this House facts related by my hon. friend that they have of serving their country in such a way reduced the tax on malt from two cents are sufficiently limited, and I do not see that -the duty paid under the late Govern-we, of all people, should try to diminish those ment to what it is at present, one cent. SENATOR FABRE'S MISSION TO FRANCE. INQUIRY. opportunities. Suppose Mr. Fabre had been a member of the House of Commons instead of being a member of the Senate, there would have been no objection to employing him in this way." Hon. Mr. TRUDEL rose to call the I may say that, in alluding to this attention of the Government to the six-subject again, I owe it to myself to detieth item of the Supplementary Estimates of Canada for the year ending 30th June, 1881, and asked for explanations as to clare that it is not with a desire to find fault with the Government for having paid that comparatively small sum of money, or for having charged a member when it was ascertained that he had of this House with such a commission, received fifteen hundred dollars, no and I might add that I quite concur in remarks were made by the French Conthe opinion expressed by the hon. Post- servatives on that account, and because we master General that the position of a thought his employment to have been member of this House should not prevent accidental. But this year the name of him from discharging such duties as that. the hon. gentleman appears again in the It is well known that in the different Supplementary Estimates for a sum of countries of Europe, and England parti- nearly three thousand dollars, and yet the cularly, missions of high character and Government say they have nothing to do importance are generally entrusted to with Senator Fabre, and he has no mismembers of the Upper House. I have sion from them to France. While I already expressed my opinion several have no right to complain of the manner times that if similar missions were given in which the hon. Postmaster General to members of this House its tendency answered my question, I consider that would be to raise the prestige of the his answer might have been somewhat Senate. Nor do I regret that the hon. more satisfactory. But he has obliged gentleman alluded to has received this me to renew my inquiry, and call his atmoney, but this mission is a matter of tention specially to this item in the Supvery great humiliation for the French plementary Estimates. Hon. gentlemen representatives in this House. I repeat, know very well the peculiar circumstances it is with a great deal of reluctance in which the French speakers in this that I return to this subject, and it is House are placed, and the injustice that the same feeling I have always ex- has been done to the French element by perienced whenever I have felt it having no representative of that nationmy duty to allude to it, but most hon. ality and language in the Cabinet in this gentlemen must be aware of the feeling House. I happened to be absent when of disatisfaction that prevails in the Pro- this question was brought before the vince of Quebec on the supposition that House on the Address, but the hon. genSenator Fabre has been entrusted by the tleman will recollect the feeling that was Government with a mission to France, expressed on that subject. It was and if no voice is raised in this House to stated, and, I regret to say, incorrectly ask for an explanation of the matter we stated, in this House that if the would be considered as recreant to our rights of the French Canadian element duty towards our Province. On a pre- were not recognized in the Senate it was vious occasion, when I put my questions due to the feeling that existed in the to the Government, I referred to some Lower House. The hon. Minister asParis correspondence which Senator serted that if we have no representative Fabre was contributing to the press of of that element in the Government in Quebec, and which I consider to be de- this House it was due to the fact that moralizing to the French speaking citizens the French members of the Commons who read those communications. The were opposed to it, and required the prearticles I refer to are a eulogium of sence of all the French Ministers in their principles, men, and action, which every House. I say it was incorrectly repregood citizen of this country cannot but sented to be so and I use the word condemn, and I must again express my "incorrectly" advisedly not because regret that the Government should have I believe the hon. Minister wilfully placed that gentleman in a position to made a false statement to the House, but write such articles. I have no doubt because I have reason to know, and I that the reply of the Postmaster General have written evidence signed by a majorwas strictly in accordance with the facts, ity of the representatives of our language but it was to us rather strange that the in the other House belonging to the ConGovernment should say that Senator servative party, that, when it Fabre is on no mission on their behalf, said it was on account of their and that no public expense is incurred unwillingness that our element was on his account, without any more not represented here, that stateexplanation, when we see sums in the ment was incorrect. I may say that estimates for his benefit. Last year, there is much anxiety amongst the was French members of the Commons to have a French representative on the Treasury Benches in the Senate. I do not accuse the hon. members of the Government in this House; I am confident that the ignoring of our rights in this respect does not meet with their approval; still I am obliged to look at the fact that, while the French element is ignored in this House when old public servants who deserved so much for their sacrifices and devotion to the Conservative cause are left aside the only member of this House who seems to have attracted the attention of the Government is a man, as everybody knows, who belongs to a different political party, who always fought the Conservative party and its principles, and who has never lost an occasion to express his contempt for this very House. This is a very delicate matter, and if it was a matter personal to me I would prefer not to mention it at all, but I say that the feeling in our Province is very strong on this subject. It is considered I will not say an insult but something not far from an insult to the French Conservatives of the Senate, and if the French representatives in this Parliament would seem to be indifferent they would be considered by their countrymen all over the Dominion as being unworthy of their seats in Parliament, untrue to their principles and to their duties, and unmindful of that national honor which ought to exist amongst us. on. am very sorry that I misunderstood my hon. friend the other day when he put his question. I had supposed on that occasion he had seen this item, and was anxious to know whether the services for which this item appears were still going "Whether Senator Fabre was still employed on a mission by the Government, and if so, what the expenses were. I understood him to ask it in that sense, and I said, No, that Senator Fabre was not now employed, and that the Government was not under any expense on his his account. If my hon. friend, in his inquiry, had asked if Senator Fabre had been employed, and if so, what had been his errand, and what expenses had been incurred, my answer would have been different, but that was not the question which was put. Hon. Mr. TRUDEL I had not seen the Estimates, but I had heard it spoken of amongst the people that Senator Fabre had received a certain amount of money from the Government. My attention was called to the subject by an hon. gentleman in the other House, who pointed out to me the item in the Estimates concerning immigration, and who told me it was part of that sum which had been paid to the gentleman in question. It was in consequence of that I did not look in the Supplementary Estimates. If Sir Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL I had understood the question in the way the hon gentleman now asks it, I should certainly have said Senator Fabre had been employed as the Estimates show, but that employment ceased some time ago, and that the item in the Estimates now is to pay Senator Fabre, not for present services, but for services rendered in the past. The character of the mission which was confided to Senator Fabre was this: He was going to Paris about the time when negotiations were cominencing between representatives of the Canadian Government there Alex. Galt and Colonel Bernard and the French Government, having for their object the obtaining of such a reduction in the duties on Canadian ships seeking French register as England then enjoyed which would have made a difference to Canadian shipbuilders of 38 francs a ton to be compensated to France by a reduction upon productions of France coming into Canada, which arrangement, if successful, would tend very much to improve the commercial 1elations between the two countries. Sir Alex. Galt, as the hon. gentleman knows, is not a Frenchman, and is not familiar with French usages, or French society, or official life in France, and it was supposed that Senator Fabre had many advantages from his intimate knowledge of that country, in which he had resided, and of its leading men, that might be useful to us, and that his services in gathering statistics, and influencing public opinion through the newspapers in France, would be of great value to Sir Alex. Galt in the prosecution of his mission. Therefore it was arranged that Senator Fabre, on the occasion of his re visit, should render such services as he situation of that town may not be known could. Being a member of the to many hon. gentlemen in this House. Senate, it was understood that he It is a thriving place, increasing in would not be paid anything for his time, population very rapidly, owing to but that his travelling expenses would be the public works that have been esmet. Those travelling expenses amount-tablished there in conjunction with the ed to a great deal more than was expected Intercolonial Railway, and the Sugar at the time, but Mr. Fabre, while in Paris, Refinery and other factories that have may no doubt, have been obliged to be at recently gone into operation. Owing some expense in propitiating those who to the peculiar tidal phenomena that had influence in the way of hospitali-exist at Moncton, shipping cannot ties, I mean — and this sum was paid to main afloat when the tide recedes, and meet his travelling expenses and resi- the proposed improvements consist in dential expenses while in Paris. His part in the cutting of a canal from the mission closed some time ago; I do not main river Petitcodiac to a point know exactly the date. I suppose that is on Hall's Creek, a small tributary, which all the hon. gentleman wishes to have in is to be closed at its junction with the the way of information on this subject. river. By this means, a provision will I would have given the information on be made for the greater safety of vessels, ! the previous occasion if I had understood which will then be able to lie afloat more fully what the hon. gentleman while receiving or discharging cargoes. wanted. With regard to the remarks It is thought that this improvement will which have fallen from my hon. be a great convenience to the trade of friend respecting the want of a member that port, and will promote the traffic on of the Government in this House from the Intercolonial Railway. It is for the Province of Quebec, I do not know this purpose that several gentlemen have that I can with any advantage add any-associated themselves together and ask thing to what I stated on that point on a for this act of incorporation. The Bill previous occasion. I then stated, as far has undergone a close scrutiny in another as I knew, what were the circumstances, place, and I trust there will be no oband I expressed my own feeling and thejection taken to it in this House. I feelings of my colleagues on the subject, move that the Bill be read the second and, I do not think I can advantage the time. public service by saying anything further on that matter. THIRD READINGS. The following Bills were reported from Committee, read the third time and passed. Bill (48) "An Act respecting the Canada Consolidated Gold Mining Com pany." (Mr. Flint.) Bill (44), " An Act to incorporate the Association known as the J. Winslow Jones Company, limited."—(Mr. Reesor.) MONCTON HARBOR IMPROVEMENT BILL. SECOND READING. The motion was agreed to. ADDITIONAL JUDGES IN QUEBEC BILL. The House went into Committee of Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL When this Bill was read the second time last night I said I would give such ex to-day. The Legislature of the Province of Quebec have declared that the presence of another Judge in the Court of Appeals, and also one in the Supreme Court, is necessary in that Province for the due administration of justice, and they have passed a law to that effect, and Hon. Mr. McCLELAN moved the sec-planations as might be desired upon it, ond reading of Bill (59) "An Act to incorporate the Moncton Harbor Improvement Company." He said: This Bill has been petitioned for by a number of enterprising gentlemen of the town of Moncton, for the purpose of working out a harbor improvement at that place. The Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL Not all. I this Bill is for the purpose of providing | Hon. Mr. MILLER I think the salaries for those judges. They are information which the Hon. Postmaster · both, as I am informed, to be in Mon- General has given to the House, although treal. The judges there now cannot accurate in one respect, is somewhat keep pace with the legal business, and it misleading in another. The fairest gauge is necessary that there should be these to apply in the question under consideratwo additional judges. I thought, in tion would be the gauge of cost. view of this Bill, and in view of our think if that gauge was applied to the previous discussions on similar bills, that judiciary of Quebec as to cost, the result I would obtain a statement of the num- would be very different from what the ber of judges in the various provinces, numbers, in the way in which he has and the number in proportion to the given them, would make it appear to the population. It is as follows: In On- House; because in Ontario, for instance, tario there are 13 judges of the Superior a large number of County Court judges, Court, and 47 in the County Courts (I think 47 he said there were) have 60 judges to a population, at the last salaries ranging from $2,000 to $2,400, census, of 1,620,000. In Quebec there whereas nearly all the judges in the are in the Queen's Bench 7 judges, in Province of Quebec have $4,000 at the Superior Court 26, in the Vice-Admi- | least, and many of them receive $5,000 ralty 1, making 31 judges to a popula- a year. tion of 1,191,000. I ought to mention here, though I daresay most hon. gentlemen know it, that in the Province of Quebec the judges of the Superior Court Hon. Mr. MILLER -There may be have complete jurisdiction in civil mat- one or two exceptions, but the bulk of ters, and that there is no County Court them are paid $1,000 each, and many or court of similar jurisdiction. That $5,000; that is, as large a salary is must always be borne in mind. In Nova paid to a District Court Judge in the Scotia there are 7 judges of the Superior Province of Quebec as to two County Court, and 7 of the County Court 14 Court Judges in Ontario and in all to a population of 387,000. In New other provinces of the Dominion. I Brunswick there are 6 Supreme Court think if a calculation were made as to judges, and 5 County Court judges 11 the cost of the administration of justice judges to a population of 285,000. In in the various provinces, the inference Manitoba there are 3 Queen's Bench which would be drawn from the figures judges, and I believe a County Court is just given by the hon. Postmaster Genenow being established. In British Col-ral would hardly be borne out. Howumbia there are 5 judges of the Supreme ever, that is a matter of comparatively Court to an estimated population now of small importance. It is, however, a 60,000. In Prince Edward Island there matter of very great importance, in my are 3 judges of the Supreme Court opinion - this increase from year to and County Court judges to ar. esti-year of the judiciary. I have conversed mated population of 100,000. That would with men holding prominent positions at give, in Ontario, one judge to 27.000 the bar of Quebec, who say that these of the population; in Quebec 1 to 35,000; judges are not required, who say, at any in Nova Scotia 1 to 27,000; in New rate, the requirements of that Province Brunswick 1 to 25,000; in British Col- do not necessitate the appointment of umbia 1 to 12,000; in Prince Edward another judge of the Court of Appeal. I Island 1 to 14,000; so that altogether do not know how that may be, but this the number of judges compared to the opinion has been expressed to me by population is not very unequal. I gentlemen who ought to be qualified to thought the committee would be inter- form a judgment on the matter. ested to hear these satistics. My hon. this subject of increasing the judiciary friend who sits near me informs me that has from time to time been before this there are only 3 County Court judges in House, I have thought it my duty to Prince Edward Island. That would be differ from the position which has 6 to a population of 100,000 or 1 in been assumed by both Governments every 17,000. with regard to the question. It - When |