Hon. Mr. BOTSFORD — All 1 have to say is that I was in the Government part of the time that timber was being cut, and the persons who were appointed as inspectors said the timber was cut in many cases without license at all, and it was seized by the officers who were appointed by the Government. That I have a distinct recollection of, and, therefore, have no great sympathy for those persons, because I know they got very fine timber, and if they paid double duty it was not too much, for they had the cut of the best timber lands in New Brunswick. If this resolution passes and a committee is appointed, I do not see that any satisfactory result can arise. They cannot make a satisfactory report unless they investigate all those circumstances, and have evidence before them, so that all parties who are interested should have an opportunity of being heard, and of showing why it is that New Brunswick does not feel disposed to pay this claim. I have a decided impression thatno good result will come from it.

be the losers.

Hon. Mr. READ As the hon. member has put my name on the Committee, and the Government don't seem to have

any great objection to this investigation, I suppose it is hardly worth while to say much on the subject. It seems that there is some question that the Government thought ought to be settled. Repeated action has been taken by different Governments with reference to this matter, not only by the appointment of Commissioners, but by the payment of money. The contention is, as I understand it, that the last Commissioners went beyond the record; that they were instructed to do a certain thing, and that they did something beyond their instructions. Two of them made a report, but the AuditorGeneral said he could not agree with that report of his fellow Commissioners, because they had gone beyond what they had been instructed to investigate. In the Order - in - Council dated 9th Apri', 1880, after giving the names of the Commissioners, the reference says:

said accounts and differences between the said "As Commissioners to adjust and settle the Provinces, in accordance with the provisions

of said Act, and that the legal obligations of the parties, in so far as such accounts have not been settled, adjusted and satisfied, under and by the reports of Messrs. Cutler and Dawson, of date 19th day of April, 1856, and the report of Messrs. Harding and Dawson, of date of 12th of November, 1856, and provided that nothing herein shall authorise the reopening of any matter, closed by the said reports of the said Commissioners - Cutler and Dawson, or Harding and Dawson, the report of any two of the Commissioners to be

valid."

Hon. Mr. GLASIER I am very much surprised at the remarks of the hon. gentleman. When he was a member of the New Brunswick Legislature, and when he was also a member of the Boundary Commission, he had these accounts before him, and said nothing of these historical matters that he has been going back 150 years to speak about to-day They are not connected with this ques- What is claimed is that those Commistion at all. When he was over a quar- sioners went beyond the record in not ter of a century younger than he is now, starting from the reports of Messrs. Cutand when these matters were before himler and Dawson, and Dawson and Hardwhen he had these accounts and ing. In corroboration of that fact, I reports, why did he not bring up all these have Mr. Macdougall's report here, and things I am very much surprised that will read just a small paragraph or two he takes this line now. The hon. gen-rom it. He says :-

tleman has also stated that this timber was cut without licenses. I can tell him that I and others had licenses in 1842-43 from the Government of New Brunswick, and also licenses from the Government

"Our differences, therefore, are confined to wick survey, and arbitration account marked the expenditure regarding the New BrunsA. I was satisfied as to the correctness of all the items except that for the expenses.”

Showing that they went into an account | long in public life, say fifty years, to see of expenditure years before 1856. Now, its force. These parties have a claim. while it would not relieve the members Whether it is just or not I do not know, of the committee if they have to take six but surely it ought to be investigated. months for this investigation, I The worst criminal who has anything think it would relieve the Gov-against his character has the courts open ernment if there was some in- to brim, but in this case there is no other vestigation. It appears that some of tribunal to which the claimants can apHer Majesty's subjects are dissatisfied peal, except the Dominion Parliament. because certain moneys are due them, If the claim should be established against and no settlement can be obtained. the Dominion Government they have Surely some means ought to be found to recourse against the New Brunswick settle this matter that appears to have Government, and I do not believe that been running ever since the Ashburton in that case the Government of that Treaty. I simply give these few facts in Province would refuse to pay the amount. connection with it, thinking possibly I regret that I made some hasty remarks that it might be a relief to the Govern- the other day from which it might be ment to get rid of this matter in some inferred that I supposed the New Brunsmanner or other. Whether the Govern- wick Government would not pay a just ment of New Brunswick or this Gov- debt. Now, when I am in Nova Scotia ernment think fit to acquiesce in the I am a Nova Scotian, and when I am matter is another question. Govern-in New Brunswick I am a Nova Scotian, ments do not always act upon the but outside of either I am a citizen of reports of committees. I had a commit- the Maritime Provinces. The interests tee once which reported to the House; of those Provinces are as dear to me as the House concurred in that report, but the honor of Nova Scotia itself, and the the Government did not adopt it. reason is that it was but a few years ago that Nova Scotia and New Brunswick were the one Province, and I hope the day is not far distant when, burying any little trifling jealousy or rivalry between them, they will be one Province again. The only difficulty about that is the name of the united provinces. Acadia is the natural name to choose, but then the difficulty in that case would be as my classical friend beside me would say that we would be called arcades ambo, which is rather a bad name in the classics. Suppose we rise superior to party in this case. It is a pity that we should always in this House vote the one way. No one is more willing than I am to follow the Government, and if they tell me that this is a test question, and that if the resolution is adopted they will go out of power, I say let justice suffer rather than have a change of Government. But if it is not supposed to be a test question, let justice influence us, or putting justice aside, let us be influenced and "give the little fellow fair play."

Hon. Dr. ALMON - From what fell from the leader of the Government, I was inclined to think that the motion of my hon. friend opposite was useless. He said that the Committee would meet, but could do nothing. But my hon. friend from Sackville says that instead of having little or nothing to do, the investigation would occupy them six months, and I am sure if the Committee should have to go over the fifty years to which he refers, it would take six years to complete the inquiry. But I think it quite unnecessary to go back so far. To my mind this is a very simple thing. There was a territory in dispute, claimed by New Brunswick and Quebec. A certain stumpage on timber was levied, and both Provinces claimed the dues should be paid to them. The lumbermen, knowing that it would have to be refunded by one Government or the other, went on cutting. The hon. Senator from Sackville says the proof that this timber was cut without license, is that he was informed that some Hon. Mr. CARVELL- Perhaps the parties were cutting timber there with doctrine of the hon. Senator from Haliout license. I fail to see the conclusion | fax- the greatest good to the greatest of this argument, but that, perhaps, is number is sound, and a greater caladue to the fact that I am not sufficiently mity would follow upon a change of Gov

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Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL

I

ernment,than if the claimants in this case can come to the Government, or any one, were refused a hearing. As a supporter through the investigation. As I have of the Government I regret that there said, I have heard a good deal out of should be any opposition on their part to doors in reference to this matter, and I this committee. Of the merits of the claim have heard great complaints coupled with I know nothing. I have heard a good the names of one or two members of the deal of it on the streets for years past. I present Government, who are gentlemen do not quite understand the remark that that I know to be incapable of any fell from the leader of the Government unfair or unkind act. I think that the that the mover of this resolution, in press- report of this committee would go far to ing for this committee, was probably rais- relieve these gentlemen of the very outing obstacles that would stand in his own spoken expressions in reference to the m way later on; nor do I quite understand I have heard these expressions in Ottawa' the reference of the hon. gentleman who in Montreal, in St. John and in Halifax, followed him, that any gentleman accept that certain members of the Government ing a position on the committee would are acting unfairly, and that they, and be required to labor six months or more. they alone, are in the gap that a maI do not see that either of these positions jority of the Government are willing to is fairly taken in reference to this have this claim paid, but one or two of matter. If there is a claim, it can their colleagues prevent it. I speak with be settled without going back to the a good deal of feeling, because I know time of Columbus or to the time that that so far as the gentlemen referred to Acadia was so extensive. There is no are concerned they are incapable of an possibility, if I understand the record, of unkind, much less an unjust act, and I going back prior to 1856. The question think, therefore, the Government should appears to me as stated clearly by the hon. consent to the appointment of the comthe seconder of the resolution, that cer- mittee. tain Commissioners, not arbitration, were appointed to do a certain thing. They did not do that thing, but did something else, and the report of that something else has influenced the Government so that no further progress has been made towards the settlement of the claim beyond the payment of a few thousand dollars. It is well known to many outside of Governments that it is difficult for the weak to make good a claim against any government. I have a claim to-day, one of years standing, against one of the departments of the Government, which, because it is not very large, is difficult to have settled. It is as good a claim as any in the world, but I do not press it, because it is not worth the trouble it would take to collect it. These claimants, according to the position they take have સ good claim. It this matter should be referred to a committee to be reported to the House, it could not put them in a worse position; it might not put them in a better position, but they consent to be bound by the report of that committee. The Government say they will not be bound by the decision of that committee on their part. Still, the claimants ask for the committee, and surely no harm

have said all that I am disposed to say with reference to the appointment of a committee, and the uselessness of the motion which my hon. friend desires to make. Having said so much, if my hon. friend still persists, I must ask him to alter the phraseology of this resolution, because it is impossible for me to assent to several of the propositions which it lays down. The resolution says :—“ Inquire into the circumstances of a debt devolving upon the Dominion Government." I cannot assent to the assertion. I ask my hon. friend to insert the word "alleged" before "debt."

66

Hon. Mr. GLASIER All right; say "alleged."

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL-The resolution then says, "and now due to certain parties. I cannot assent to that. It should be, "said to be due." Hon. Mr. GLASIER

that.

I assent to

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL Then I must also ask that the words "the liability for which has been acknowledged by various reports, Orders in Council, and payment of account, both

As

CATTLE TRADE WITH ENGLAND.

INQUIRY.

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Hon. Mr. DICKEY Before the House adjourns I would like to ask the hon. leader of the Government a question with reference to the answer he gave on a former occasion regarding a very important matter connected with the cattle trade. I understood from the hon. Postmaster General on that occasion — and his statement was in entire conformity with what was stated in another place that there was no Order

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL I have already said, the decision of the Committee is one which the Government of the Dominion cannot acknowledge to be obligatory upon them. As it affects the Province of New Brunswick, I think some other gentlemen from that Province should be added to the Committee. I find among the names here Messrs.in-Council requiring the slaughter of Lewin, McClelan, and the mover, from that Province. I think it would be well to add the names of Messrs. Wark, Boyd, and Dever.

"That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the circumstances of a debt al. leged to devolve upon the Dominion Government by the British North America Act, and said to be now due to the Hon. Benjamin Beveridge, James Tibbitts, and others, but the payment of which is withheld for some cause unknowd; and that the said Committee be composed of the Hon. Messrs. Montgomery Read, Lewin, Trudel, Bureau, Boyd, Dever and the Mover, with power to send for persons and papers."

PETROLEUM INSPECTION BILL,

AMENDMENTS CONCURRED IN.

Hon. Mr. AIKINS moved concurrence in the amendments made in Committee of the Whole in Bill (L) "An Act to amend the Petroleum Inspection Act of 1880."

Canadian cattle within a limited period. I think it is six days after their being landed in England. I am sorry to be obliged to state it has come to my knowledge that within the last week a large importation of cattle from Halifax

I think between four and five hundred head of live stock besides dead meat went to London and there they were met with that Order-in-Council requiring the information I have. those cattle to be slaughtered. That is I do not know whether it is correct, but I shall be very glad if the hon. leader of the House can give us any information upon the point, because it is a matter that affects a very large and growing enterprise in this country. It is one that concerns a great many people in this country -- I believe all the eastern provinces of the Dominion.

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Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL is a point of the very first importance I quite recognize. I am not able to give my hon. friend any information upon it. I saw the Minister of Agriculture, who takes the keenest interest in everything connected with that topic, for one hourbetween two and three o'clock this afternoon and he said nothing about any intimation having been received as to the slaughter of any cattle. The previous information I gave the House was on his authority, and was the result of a cablegram which he sent to London to ascertain whether such an Order-inCouncil had been passed. On receiving

the reply he communicated it to the other members of the Government, and it was from that reply that I spoke on the preThe motion was agreed to on the un-vious occasion. I will take occasion this derstanding that the Bill should be re-afternoon to mention what the hon. genprinted before the third reading. tleman from Amherst has said, and will

inform the House to-morrow if we have| He said: Hon. gentlemen, I sincerely any corroborative or contradictory in formation on the subject.

CANADA GUARANTEE COMPANY'S BILL Desjardins) and myself, having reasons

Hon. Mr. FERRIER moved that the the St. Vincent de Paul Penitentiary." said amendments be concurred in.

ST. VINCENT DE PAUL PENITENTIARY. tiary, neither had the Commissioners any