railway. But whether the amount be large or small it will have to be borne by the Syndicate or Company, and not by the taxpayers, as would be the case if the railway were to be built and operated by the Government. The effect of the Government arrangement is to pay for twenty-five millions of dollars' worth with land which has no present value, and to save the taxpayers $25,000,000 of money. tract, which has been spoken of here and elsewhere as a model contract, really came to nothing. Sir Hugh Allan and his associates in the undertaking did not succeed in floating the company. The presumption is that it fell through because the terms which Sir Hugh ob tained from the Government were not sufficiently liberal in the opinion of the capitalists of Europe; and Mr. MackenThe Syndicate has under-zie might feel justified in offering better terms, so that if a company entered into contract with his Government, that company would be pretty certain to succeed. But it will be seen that the most favorable of all the contracts which have been concluded or offered is the one which now lies upon our table estimating the land, as I have done in every instance, at $1 per acre and the higher the price put upon the land the more favorably will this contract compare with the others. Now let us see what this counis really offering to give to Syndicate under this contract. It is proposed to give in lands and money $53,000,000; assuming the whole distance from Lake Nipissing to the Pacific Ocean at 2,726 miles, the cash subsidy amounts to only $19,443 per mile for the whole distance, including what has been expended by the Government; the land subsidy, on the same basis, will give 9,170 acres, making altogether -estimating the land at $1 per acre- $28,713 per mile. taken to perform work that will cost $50,000,000, for which the country will only pay $25,000,000 in cash. One half the cost will be paid in land which has no present value, and which will derive its future value from the expenditure of the Syndicate. Their expenditure will also confer great value on the Government land and cause it to yield much more than enough to recoup the whole expenditure of the country. This contract has been compared with previous contracts and previous offers so frequently and ably try that I shall allude to them in the briefest the possible way. The contract which is now upon our table proposes to give the works that have cost the country $28,000,000, and a cash subsidy of $25,000,000 (in all $53,000,000), and a land subsidy of 25,000,000 acres, which for the purpose of calculation I shall estimate at $1 per acre, representing $25,000,000, and making altogether $78,000,000. The Allan contract was for $30,000,000 cash, and 54,700,000 acres, including 4,700,000 acres for branches, which at the same rate of $1 per acre, gives $54,700,000, making altogether $84,700,000. Mr. Mackenzie's terms were, cash $10,The SPEAKER I am showing what 000 per mile, which, calling the distance the whole cost of the road will be. The 2,726 miles, this would amount to $27,- cost of the portions built and to 260,000. I estimate the sum on which be built by the Goverment will be Mr. Mackenzie would have been willing $28,000,000, and the Syndicate are to to pay 4 per cent. per annum for 25 receive for the portion that they are to years as equal to $5,000 per mile, build $25,000,000. The two together or $13,630,000, making the cash make $53,000,000, so that the expendisubsidy $40,890,000. Then the land ture in cash by the country and that subsidy of 20,000 acres per mile, or is the point I want to make clear - will 54,520,000 acres for the entire dis-only be $19,443 per mile. Now, there tance, which, at $1 per acre, would are very few gentlemen in this House amount to $54,520,000, making altogether in cash and land, $95,410,000. It will be seen from these figures that the terms offered by the late Government were really more liberal than the contract made with Sir Hugh Allan, and there is a very obvious reason for that. The Allan con Hon. Mr. SCOTT. But the Syndicate do not build the whole of it. who have not, at one time or another, made estimates for themselves of what this road would probably cost. They have seen many estimates, some of them made by the Government engineers, and they have made their own calculations. Now, I ask them to endeavor to recall 360 Pacific. Hon. Mr. HAYTHORNE includes the whole line. [SENATE.] The SPEAKER-Yes, the whole line of 2,726 miles, the whole line from Lake Nipissing to the Pacific Ocean, including the guarantee for operating the road for that is ten years after its completion I may obfor twenty years from now. serve that each section of railway as it is completed is to be run; that is part of the guarantee. Of course you Hon. Mr. DEVER not include surveys in that estimate? do a an these estimates, and to say if they ever put | a proposal had been laid upon our table the cost as low as it is under this contract three or four years ago, would not have namely, $19,443 in cash, supplemented been delighted? I can fancy the delight by a subsidy in land of 9,170 acres per with which my hon. friend the ex-Secretary of State would have laid such our table; the contract upon mile ? That credit he would have taken, and would have justly taken, to his Government so favorable for having made arrangement; and credit is due to the present Government for having made it. The land subsidy is really of no present The land will value, and that is the fair and the only fair way of looking at it. undoubtedly become of great value, but it will be by the expenditure of capital by this Syndicate. The land can be of no value until railways are constructed through it, and traverse it in more than one direction. It will not be enough to build the Canadian Pacific Railway across the prairies; that will not make the whole of the land valuable. The Company must build branches, to intersect the country largely with railways, to give full value to their lands, and they are to receive no subsidy, either in money Not only must they construct or land, towards constructing branch lines. railways, but they must also organize a comprehensive system of immigration. They must cover the United Kingdom and the countries of Europe with a network of emigration agencies. Their success will depend upon their bringing immigrants in great numbers on to the In that direction they must use North-West Territory, and peopling it and they are genrapidly. their best energies tlemen of great energy. They are not only energetic, but are possessed of great resources in capital, in influence, and in their connections in England, in France, We have their asand also in Germany, whence so many immigrants come. this surance, and I believe they are sincere, bringing immigrants that they will devote their best energies to country; it will be their interest to do - No. The cost of The SPEAKER surveys has been withdrawn from this, because it included the survey of the country for other purposes. The Syndicate have to build 2,000 miles, and they are to receive for that in cash $25,000,000, and I must remind the House that out of this $25,000,000 they will have to expend $2,500,000 to equip the portions of the road built and building by the Government; so that the real cash subsidy which they are to receive as applicable to the building of the road is only $22,500,000; or, on the 2,000 miles, $11,250 per mile. The Government has agreed to pay the Syndicate $25,000,000, and it is that amount, and that amount only, that will be a burden on the taxpayers of the country. Now, I ask hon. gentlemen, considering the work to be done, considering the 650 miles of railway which the Syndicate are to build north of Lake Superior, and the portion of the road that they are to construct in the Rocky Mountains, and considering the prairie section also (which I apprehend will be found not to be quite so light as some gentlemen appear to suppose), considering all these, and the guarantee to run the railway after it is completed - I ask On if the cash subsidy is excessive? the contrary, is it not an amazingly Is it not so moderate moderate one? that when it comes to be looked at carefully and without partizan feeling, it will astonish the country? Is there an hon. gentleman in this House who, if such a 80. to Unless they get the prairies largely peopled before the eastern section is opened the operating of the railway will be a heavier undertaking than it would be under different circumstances, and they are fully aware of that. I think the Government and the country will derive the greatest advantage from the co-operation and assistance which the to hold it until the Compnay earn it from time to time; but the Government only agree to do that because they see where they can use the money to advantage. The Government will not lose the interest on that sum, or on any part of it; it will be applied to liquidating other obligations which are now bearing interest at 5 and 6 per cent. per annum. Between now Syndicate will render in peopling that | so. The Government is willing to take country. What they may do to enhance $25,000,000 at 4 per cent. interest and the value of their lands will also enhance the value of the public lands. I am aware that some gentlemen now set a fabulous value on land in the NorthWest. One hon. gentleman (Mr. Reesor) said that from 5,000 to 8,000 acres per mile would be an ample subsidy. Then the hon. Senator from Hamilton set a very high value on it, and not only did that, but converted it into cash at and the 1st of January 1885, $42,000,his own valuation, and treated it practi-000 of the obligations of the Dominion cally as a cash payment to the Syndicate. will mature. Of course it will be a long time before the Syndicate can get such a price as the hon. gentleman named for their lands. They will have but a comparatively small residue of land when that time comes. Then the ex-Secretary of State placed the cost of the road at an enormous sum; if I understood him aright he spread the expenditure over 20 years, and called it $158,680,000 and 25,000,000 acres of land. - sub The SPEAKER The cash sidy may be paid, as provided for, on the completion of each section of twenty miles of railway, or it may be paid in the form of interest coupons; but no matter in which form, all that will be paid is $25,000,000, or the equivalent of that sum according to actuarial calculation, in interest coupons. The total subsidies are $25,000,000 in cash and 25,000,000 acres of land. Then the hon. gentleman from Ottawa (Mr. Scott) spoke of the Government being the bankers of the Syndicate. That is not correct. It may be for the convenience of the Syndi-cate to borrow under sub-section d of the contract considerable amounts of capital when the money market is favorable for their doing Hon. Mr. SCOTT - What I contended was that, if it were known that these extraordinary facilities were offered, other contractors would have tendered to do the work for even less. The SPEAKER But the hon. gentleman will see that the Syndicate could have deposited the money with the banks. Hon. Mr. SCOTT- My point is this: that the bonds largely increase in value by the Government paying the interest on those coupons. It is infinitely better security than if the Syndicate were paying the interest. The SPEAKER If the payments should not be made in that form, they would be made in cash as each twenty miles section of railway is constructed. The Syndicate would be able to represent this to the capitalists of the world, and the Government of Canada would confirm the statement, so that the credit of the Company would not be affected by this particular mode of payment. Now, hon. gentlemen, a good deal has been said about land monopoly. I really have no fears upon that head. I believe the Syndicate will understand it to be to their interest to have the lands quickly settled. To do that they must offer them at low prices, and I am prepared to hear of them offering lands at lower prices than any that have been named in this House. I shall not be surprised if they offer large quantities of these lands free to actual settlers. I feel quite certain that they will understand their interest sufficiently to do all in their power to induce settlers to enter upon their lands. One year's traffic of the products of a farm, cultivated by an ordinary family, would yield more to them than the price they may receive for the land at the early sales, and I may say that some of the gentlemen interested in this Syndicate have shown elsewhere — in Minnesotathat they understand this policy. The hon. Senator from Ottawa (Mr. Scott) said that he set a higher value on the land than heretofore, because we were discovering that it is more valuable than we had hitherto supposed. That is true, but only because there is a prospect of the land being opened up by the very means we are now providing. But let us withdraw the prospects of early railways from that country, and what would land there be worth? It would be worth no more than it was fifteen years ago, when it was, of course, altogether unsale able. Hon. Mr. SCOTT I am quite aware of that. The SPEAKER But, hon. gentlemen, we are not only discovering that our land is more valuable, but we are also discovering that we have more of it than we formerly supposed. A physical atlas was issued a few days ago by Dr. Hurlburt, a gentleman who ought to be good authority on this question, and who has had access to the very best and most correct sources of information on the subject. He puts the grass bearing area of land in our North-West territory, east of the Rocky Mountains and west of the boundary of Ontario, at 900,000,000 come to twice that quantity, it might be open to question; but, certainly, the quantity we are giving is not open to any objection of that kind. The question of exemptions from taxation, duty, etc., has been sufficiently explained by hon. gentlemen who have taken part before me in this debate, and I shall not refer to it further than to say that whatever the money value of this may be is so much saved to the present taxpayers of the Dominion, and I think they are those whose interests we ought chiefly to consider. The only contribution to its cost by the people who will enjoy the benefits to be derived from this railway in future times will be the small amount of taxes which they will be prohibited from collecting upon the property of this Company. As for the taxes upon the lands, my hon. friend the Minister of Inland Revenue showed, the other evening, that in all probability the exemption would have been as valuable or more valuable under the Mackenzie terms than they are under this contract. Why should not those who are to people the North-West contribute in the future towards the cost of this railway? Do not the provinces and the municipalities in the settled portions of Canada contribute largely towards the construction of railways? Was not a bonus granted by this very city a few weeks ago in support of a railway to Toronto I think the amount was $200,000? That is an instance of the From that, of course, must be liberality with which municipalities condeducted the waste lands; but I am tribute to railways throughout this counassured that the waste lands of that try. All the western cities, and many of territory bear a smaller proportion to the the rural municipalities, have contributed whole area than almost of any other in the same way, and very largely in country. Now, if this atlas is correct, proportion to their means. With the subsidy of 25,000,000 acres, that respect to the standard I need not say seems to many to be so large, is only one anything. My hon. friend from Montar thirty-sixth part of our North-Westville (Mr. DeBoucherville) showed that Territory. The same atlas shows that the cereal bearing lands amount to 600,000,000 acres, of which the quantity to be given to the Syndicate is in area only one twenty-fourth part. This statement will perhaps give an idea of what we are giving to this Syndicate and what we are reserving. I would not be willing to give to a company anything approaching to a controlling interest in our lands in the North-West. I do not think that a thirty sixth or a twentyfourth part is objectionable. When you a cres. the standard is really a high one. Hon. Mr. SCOTT If we get that now, we get both in that way. - until the line is made first-class. The will also be a competitor, and I have nonext point to come to is a very doubt that line will be built, and built important one, and one that has shortly. The Canadian interests connaturally interested the country cerned in it will see that it is built, per very much : that is the question haps before the all-rail Canadian line. of monopoly with respect to traffic. But I cannot understand any Canadian Now, hon. gentlemen, instead of this being satisfied to accept the Sault line in Company having a monopoly, the con- lieu of an all-rail line through Canadian struction of the Canadian Pacific Rail-territory. way will render monopoly impossible. It is for the purpose of securing the trade of the North-West to Canada that this railway is being built, and the tariff of The SPEAKER The way to get rates is to be subject to the approval of both is to take the all-rail line now when the Governor in council. If it were not to we have an opportunity of getting it; be constructed, the United States lines the Sault connection will come, and probwould have a monopoly of our trade. The ably be open for traffic before the other. construction of our railway will prevent But if we have the Sault line first we this. I repeat that the Canadian Pacific shall have interests opposed to our naRailway, instead of being a monopoly, tional line. I repeat I cannot underas far as traffic is concerned, will really stand how any Canadian desiring the be the means of preventing any monop- welfare of the country, the development oly being established. Another fact that of its trade and the enrichment of its has an important bearing upon the mon- people can accept the Sault line the opoly question is that it will be for the foreign line in lieu of the Canadian line. interest of the Company to charge the Hon. gentlemen are, no doubt, aware that lowest possible rates, because low rates the Sault line, or rather the extension of of freight will do more to attract immi- the Northern Pacific Railway, from Dugrants to their lands than even a low luth towards the Straits of Mackinaw, is price for land. The price of land the not for the purpose of connecting with purchase money of one or two dollars the Canadian line at the Sault, but to an acre has only to be paid once, but the connect with the Michigan railways, and transportation of the products of the land through them reach Detroit. The diswill be unending, and if the rates of tance from Winnipeg to Detroit is extransport are higher than the rates for actly the same both by Duluth and the similar distances in the United States, a Straits of Mackinaw and by St. Paul and check will be given to settlement, and Chicago. From this extension of the the success of the Company will be jeopar- Northern Pacific a branch will be dized. The interests of the Company are dropped down to the Sault. Hon. genso manifestly in favor of charging low tlemen will see that it would be in the rates of freight that I have no apprehen-interest of that Company to prevent the sion of their doing otherwise. The traffic leaving their main line at the Northern Pacific Railway is the natural competitor of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and when the extensions of the Northern Pacific are completed to the Straits of Mackinaw and Detroit, that line will be a formidable competitor. Up to this time it has had, during the summer season, via Duluth, almost a monop. oly of the rail and water borne traffic. The all-rail traffic throughout the year has necessarily to be taken round by St. Paul and Chicago, and it will continue to be SO taken until our through rail line is built. The Sault Branch, when it is built in connection with the Northern Pacific, Sault for the Canadian railways, and we know what can be done by railway companies to prevent traffic that they have on their lines from leaving them. They will take from our line all they can get, and in return give as little as they can. The Northern Pacific Company would probably have one rate to Detroit and a higher rate per mile to the Sault junction. Our Sault line will have to compete with the main Northern Pacific line and its extensions, and compete under disadvantageous conditions. Besides, it will have to compete with the water during the summer. If we were to be content with the Sault line a large portion |