354

The Beveridge and

[SENATE.]

Now we with this very vexed question have come their timber seized and held by the Prounder my notice, and I have a very vivid vince of New Brunswick. As far come down to the award that was made recollection of some of the facts. as my memory serves me, there are sev-between 1863 and 1866. eral points on which my hon. friend is in

error.

In the first place, it is not a matter between Quebec and New Brunswick, but it is one between Quebec and Ontario on the one side, and New Brunswick on the other. I think the whole difficulty has arisen from the obstinacy of New Brunswick in refusing to recognize the Dawson award. One of the gentlemen acting on the arbitration was elected for a constituency in 1863 or 1864, before he had signed the award, and therefore he was incapacitated from doing so; but the Government of the day agreed that the award should be recognized in so far as Canada was concerned. It was a very long inquiry, occupying months altogether. The difficulty arose then that Quebec claimed that this disputed district belonged to that Province, but the cut upon it, under timber that was license from the Province of Quebec, when it passed down the river into the Province of New Brunswick, was seized by the Government of the latter Province. This went on for three or four years, and the parties at last settled with New Brunswick by paying extortionate rates of tolls, with penalties added. When the question of the boundary was settled between the two provinces, it was found that a very considerable portion of the territory in dispute belonged to the Province of Quebec. If New Brunswick was justified in seizing this timber, there could be no award against her; it was because New Brunswick had acquired money that did not belong to her on the timber cut in this district while passing through that province that this award was made against her. In consideration of the great trouble, litigation, losses sustained by and many expense the parties who insisted upon standing by their rights, the Province of Quebec was content to relinquish nearly the whole of the money coming to them.

Hon. Mr. AIKINS

of it.

Hon. Mr. ODELL

Which award?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT-- The award Mr.
Dawson was a party to.

- Do vou mean

Hon. Mr. ODELL
the award of Dawson and Harding?

Hon. Mr. SCOTT

Hon. Mr. ODELL 1856.

Yes.

Hon. Mr. BOTSFORD boundary was settled.

I

Hon. Mr. SCOTT - Yes, in 1856,
Under that award, part
think it was.
of the money has been paid, from time to
time, to the parties. In the last seven
years they obtained the interest on the
moneys allotted to Ontario and Quebec,
There is no doubt that
and the Dominion subsequently paid some
of those moneys.

there is still a balance due on the basis
that Ontario and Quebec have paid — on
that basis there is a certain amount,
either for principal or interest, and there
certainly is an amount due by New
Brunswick. That is practically the po-
sition to-day. Of course it is a matter
of very great delicacy on the part of the
Dominion to insist on the payment of
this amount; still, I think we can find a
precedent for such arbitrary action when
a province resists paying its just dues. I
cannot, at this moment, quote precedents;
but I think I could very soon, if an op-
portunity were afforded, cite cases in
which the Dominion withheld moneys
that they considered due by provinces in
certain cases.

It does not seem to me
A committee could do no
that a committee should be appointed in
this matter.
thing, of course, and I assume that if the
facts were made clear that New Bruns
would not resist, unless some good
wick should pay a still further sum, she
grounds were shown why she should be
exonerated from it. They could only go
into the examination of facts, and, after
Canada relin-wards, if it were proved that New Bruns
wick was liable for the amount claimed,
means might be found to compel that
Government to pay it.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT
quished hers in consideration of the large
amount of expense and annoyance that
those parties had undergone by having

Mr.

If

Hon. BOTSFORD It was My hon friend from Richmond (Mr. under united Canada that this transac- Miller) has appealed to me, if the Govtion took place; but the hon. gentleman ernment is not ready to make some prowas entirely in error in stating that the mise with reference to this matter. territory belonged to Canada. A com- it were a question in which the Governpromise was made by the Commissioners, ment of the Dominion was alone conwhich gave nearly equal portions of the cerned, and I thought it proper to do so, disputed territory to each province. AI would be in a position to make such a great deal of this timber was cut on the disputed territory which was finally adjudicated upon by the Commissioners to whom the subject was referred; an Act of the Imperial Parliament was passed to ratify the decision of the Commissioners, and a great deal of that territory went to New Brunswick, to my knowledge, under that decision. If I understand the question rightly, we have not yet under stood that New Brunswick has refused to pay the amount of the award.

I

Hon. Mr. BOTSFORD If New Brunswick has not refused to pay that award, I do not think any censure should be passed on that Government, as I suppose they had the right to be governed by the decision of the last arbitration in this case. Therefore, if New Brunswick is prepared to pay that award, I do not see by what means the Government of the Dominion can enforce the payment of any further sum.

Hon. Mr. SCOTT I think that eighteen or twenty years ago Mr. Langton investigated this matter and made an elaborate report in which he gave the fullest and most reliable information that is to be had on the subject.

Hon. Sir The question of interest is incident to the award; but there is no question of interest on the award. The question raised in dispute is in reference to the conduct of the arbitrators. The assertion

ALEX. CAMPBELL

promise; but this is a matter that concerns not only the Dominion, but the Province of New Brunswick also, and I cannot make any promise, in advance, of what that Province is ready to do; therefore I am unable to say that the Government will, or can, arrive at any different conclusion than that we have arrived at now. I shall say this to my hon. friend: if it will meet his views and the views of the hon. mover of this resolution, that I shall undertake during the recess that the Government

will press it upon the notice of the Government of New Brunswick, and endeavor to get them to make some further inquiry into it. The House will see that if the money is paid out of the Dominion treasury on this claim, it must be paid on behalf of the Province of New Brunswick, and, therefore, we must proceed in conjunction with that Province. To grant a committee, and that committee to pursue an inquiry at great length, without the representation that that Province considers necessary, would, I am sure, be without any result, and I am not sure that it would arrive at such a conclusion as my hon. friend would like, in the interests of those whom he represents.

Hon. Mr. ODELL I do not feel inclined to press this matter against the opinion of the Government. I quite agree that, if the question was to be opened up again, New Brunswick ought to have a voice in the matter. Taking that view, I am willing to accept the offer of the hon. the leader of the Govern ment, and I hope, both as regards New Brunswick, and as regards the parties

who have this claim, that there will be no occasion to bring it up again, and that is that they did not pursue the in-something will be done to settle the matvestigation in the mode they ought ter during the recess. to have done, and that if they had Hon. Mr. ALMON If the motion done so they would have arrived at a has been seconded, I must insist on the different conclusion. Still the award is question being put. Individuals have there, and the Government has offered come here, and have asked for the apto pay it on behalf of New Brunswick.pointment of a committee of inquiry, and

[SENATE.]

Bill (50) "An Act to correct a clerical error in schedule B of Act 43 Vic., chap 22, to amend the Banking Act and continuing the charters of certain banks." (Sir Alex. Campbell.)

CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY BILL.

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL moved the House into Committee of the Whole, on Bill (37) "An Act respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway."

Hon. Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL moved the adoption of the first clause.

The SPEAKER (Mr. MACPHERSON) I desire to address the House It was my this question. upon my intention to have done so on the second reading of the Bill, but I did not wish to take the floor from any other gentleman, and, by the close of the debate, the evening was so far advanced that I thought I would best consult the convenience of hon. gentlemen if I postponed what I had to say to this stage of the Bill; and while it is rather contrary to rule to discuss the principle of a bill

The enterin Committee, I hope the House [will bear with me while I do so. prise referred to in the Bill is one that I Since the Canadian first inception. have taken a deep interest in since its Pacific Railway was first projected, I favored the carrying out of this work When the Allan Company failed through the instrumentality of a company. to carry out their project, and when I foresaw that great delay was likely to I became in favor of certain porensuie, tions of the work being constructed by the Government, and I moved resolutions in this House recommending that the prairie section should be proceeded with as a public work, and extended in mended making a beginning in British advance of settlement. I also recomColumbia, in fulfilment of the agreement which Canada had made with that Pro

It was the intention of that Government which will make these works that is to use the water stretches between Lake the Pembina Branch, the Lake Superior Superior and the Red River, and with that and Red River Section, and the British view they commenced the Fort Frances Columbia Section cost $24,000,000, Lock. After a time that work was dis- exclusive of equipment and surveys. continued. The construction of the Lake Now, hon. gentlemen, this is a very large Superior and Red River section however expenditure, and it is an expenditure to was continued, and its two ends, each of which the present Government, when 113 miles, were placed under contract. it succeeded to power, found the country Hon. gentlemen, such was the state of irrevocably committed, and it became the Canadian Pacific Railway when the their duty to see how it could be utilized present Government succeeded to power, how it could be turned to profitable and were required to frame a policy for account for the country. The section that great enterprise. They determined between Lake Superior and Red River to cancel the contract for the Georgian was of course constructed for the purpose Bay Branch. They proceeded with the of affording an outlet for the trade of the Pembina Branch, which had been placed prairies, and a way in for settlers, and under contract by their predecessors, but for giving improved communication genon which, after the roadbed had been erally between this portion of Canada constructed, the work was suspended and our North-West Territories. But because the American line had not been while that section was proceeded with no brought up to the boundary, and therefore progress was made with the railway Mr. Mackenzie did not see fit to finish across the prairies themselves, SO that branch until there should be the that, while a very large expendiprospect of a connection with the lines to ture had been incurred upon it the south. Whether good policy or not, by our predecessors, no progress had been the work was suspended, but was re- made by them in opening up and sumed after a time, and was finished by peopling the prairies themselves. The the present Government. This Govern- present Government felt it necessary ment also felt bound, to com- that that should be promptly done, plete the section between Lake as, until it was done, the Superior and Red River, and Lake Superior and Red River section they accordingly placed the middle would be almost useless. And when the section of 185 miles under contract. prairies are opened up with railways, the They also placed under contract a section Lake Superior and Red River section of 126 miles in British Columbia. In will afford but a very inadequate outlet their opinion the country was committed for the trade of the North-West. It will and pledged to proceed with the railway only be a summer line, operated during in that Province a work to which the the months of navigation, and I think very troth of the country was plighted at that Lake Superior is only open from five the time British Columbia entered the to six months. Even if the Sault Canal Dominion ; and when Mr. Mackenzie suc- should be open for six months or longer, ceeded to power he entered into negotia- Superior is a stormy lake, and the risk tions with British Columbia which re- and the cost of insurance against risk sulted in the adoption of what is known will be such as to prevent its being used as the Carnarvon Terms; and his Gov- for more than from five to six months. ernment, I may say, affixed anew the seal Owners of produce, who are sending it of Canada to the treaty with British Co- forward to meet drafts maturing in Monlumbia. The works which are construct-treal or New York, will not like to exed and under contract between Lake Superior and the Red River are estimated to cost, when completed, $15,048,000, exclusive of surveys and equipment. The section placed under contract in British Columbia

pose it to the risk of delay, or possibly of wintering on Lake Superior. The Lake Superior and Red River section, therefore, will afford, when completed, but inadequate communication for the trade of the prairies. That section is really a part of the eastern section of the Canadian Pacific Railway, extending from the Red River to Lake Nipissing,

358

Pacific

[SENATE.]

Thunder | Dominion, or whether they should invite
finished the cc-operation of a company who might
the ex- be induced to take part of the considera-
tion- part of the cost of constructing
and operating the railway in land.
Now, this is the shape in which the ques-
tion presented itself to my mind, and I
say here, that I had no hesitation what-
ever in deciding which I considered most
for the advantage of this country. It
would have been a most serious respon-
sibility to have entered upon an expen-
diture which must have amounted to not
It would have involved a
less than $50,000,000 in a comparatively
few years.
very large addition to the Dominion
debt, which already has attained to large
It would have placed a
proportions.
heavier burden than would have been
judicious upon the taxpayers of the
Well, hon. gentlemen, the
country.
Government resolved to seek the assis-
tance of a company which would take
part of the consideration in land for
building the Pacific Railway and for
operating it for ten years after its com-
pletion. I believe, hon. gentlemen, that
an overwhelming majority of the people
I
of this country are of the opinion now
that that decision was a wise one.
believe that in a very few years those
who think otherwise now will entertain
different views; that they will agree
The Canadian Pacific
then with those from whom they differ at
this moment.
Railway will be largely for the benefit of
posterity. It will take ten years to com-
plete it, and the country will necessarily
take a long time to settle; so that it is
perfectly true to say that it is mainly for
the benefit of posterity. I was anxious,
therefore, that as large a portion as
Whatever cash is paid
possible of its cost should be cast
upon posterity.

and touching Lake Superior at
Bay. Until that section is
throughout and connected with
isting system of Canadian railways
near Lake Nipissing the communi-
will be
cation with the prairies
inadequate, and the trade even dur-
ing the summer months will be large-
ly diverted to the United States routes,
and away altogether from Canadian
channels. While Lake Superior is open
that route will be useful for the purpose
of carrying immigrants into the North-
West, but it will afford a very inadequate
For these reasons, hon. gentle-
service.
men, the completion of what I shall call
- that is, the section
the eastern section-
from the Red River to Callendar Station,
on the Canada Central Railway, near
became a national
Lake Nipissing - became
necessity. It has been admitted by all
who have taken part in the debate in
this House,that the extension of the line
across the prairies was a matter of pri-
mary necessity, and one of the first things
done by the present Government was to
commence to build the railway over the
Second only to that in im-
prairies.
portance at this late day is the comple-
tion of the eastern section, commenced
of which
by our predecessors, and
410 miles will be finished next year.
It became a very important question
whether these works should be carried
on by the Government or through the
instrumentality of a company. If con-
structed by the Government, they must
be paid for wholly in cash. The cost of
- that is of the line from
these works
Red River to Kamloops, and from Lake
Superior to Lake Nipissing -- would not
have been less than $50,000,000. I say
from Red River to Kamloops because I
have no doubt whatever, and I am sure
hon. gentlemen will agree with me, that out of the exchequer of this country is
if the Government built the line across withdrawn directly from the coffers of the
the prairies as far as Edmonton they taxpayers, and from employment in the
would be constrained to proceed with it industries of the Dominion. The operat
until they connected it with the British ing of this railway is guaranteed for
Columbia line at Kamloops; therefore an twenty years by the contract, and no one
I hope,
expenditure of $50,000,000 had to be pretends to say that for some years the
contemplated; and I say again, that it operating will not involve loss.
became the duty of the Government to for the sake of the contractors and for
consider whether the railway should be the sake of the country, that that loss
constructed as a Government work and may be small. If it should be small, that
paid for wholly out of the public ex-fact will be the best evidence we could
chequer, paid for wholly out of the pock- have that the country will have benefited
ets of the present taxpayers of the enormously from the construction of the