scribed, as having been imported by your company, contributes actually nothing to the overall crime problem. However, inasmuch as these weapons are taken off the world market, instead of contributing to the illegal trade they are channeled for legitimate use. Are you serious about that?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. Do you think that it would cut down on wars and revolutions and revolts?

Mr. CUMMINGS. We do not say that, no, but what I do say-I think that the evidence bears this out, and we have evidence in the testimony from the Department of State on the same subject, that in the Western World in the last 10 years there has been an almost total recession of any clandestine privately supported arms movements. The reason for that is very simple. The material which would constitute the basis of such movement has been eliminated from the market by the purchases abroad by ourselves and other leading importers and bringing them into the United States and to the British Commonwealth as sporting weapons.

Senator DODD. Do you think that is one way of providing for peace in the world?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I would be a little optimistic if I extended the statement that far. I do not have a panacea for establishing peace in the world.

Senator DODD. I do not, either, but I doubt very much that this would make any contribution, this objective.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that it is a contribution and I think that our Department of State has stated that in earlier testimony.

Senator DODD. Yes. I know. Back in 1958 one witness so testified. Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes.

Senator DODD. I do not know anyone else who has to my knowledge. Mr. CUMMINGS. They have not repudiated their earlier position,

either.

Senator DODD. They have not repudiated it, but they have not te-ified at all, have they?

Mr. CUMMINGS. The Department of State?

Senator DODD. The Department of State.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Before you.

Senator DODD. I know, but not on this subject as to whether or not this contributes toward a better condition in the world, a more peaceful

one.

Mr. CUMMINGS. They have not testified since then to my knowledge. Senator DODD. Getting back to the other subject, I asked you about the firearms in your bonded warehouses. You said that they were not all stored in the United States.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. Where are they stored?

Mr. CUMMINGS. We export them again throughout the Western World, subject to Department of State approval of any specific transactions.

Senator DODD. Then you are not contributing very much toward the settlement of world conditions-you put them in a bonded warehouse and later sell them to somebody in another country somewhere else in the world.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that we contribute to the extent that our Government's policy indicates that we must make such conditions for delivery to foreign governments and anything that we deliver is not paid for by the American taxpayer.

Senator DODD. That is right. In any event, I do not think it is much of a contribution.

We have something here that I think ought to be made a part of this record. You appeared not too much concerned about the antitank guns. You did not think that they could be used by criminals. Here is a record by FBI on materials secured from bank bandits which included two of these antitank guns. This is a picture of that. They are not on the lawn in the public square in the village.

(The photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 154" and follows on p. 712.)

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that if you recall I did not specify that that particular item was especially suitable for lawn decoration. Senator DoDD. You did not.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I notice that this picture does include two antitank rifles of the Lahti type. It also includes a large quantity of U.S. ammunition and standard American-produced light weapons. Senator DODD. I know that.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Which, frankly, were referred to as antitank rifles. Senator DODD. Yes. By your own testimony you say that you have imported some 1,000 of these antitank guns.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes.

Senator DODD. And that you have sold them at least to one dealer in New Jersey?

Mr. CUMMINGS. We sold some to one dealer in New Jersey, that is

correct.

Senator DODD. And you know where those two antitank rifles came from that are shown in that picture?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not know.

Senator DODD. They came from that dealer in New Jersey.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes.

Senator DODD. And you thought that the ad was facetious and a joke.

So.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I thought that the copy used in his ad was facetious.
Senator DODD. Apparently a couple of criminals did not think

Mr. CUMMINGS. Were these weapons used in any crime?
Senator DODD. Yes; according to the FBI, I believe they were.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Well, it says that they were seized, confiscated from a criminal in a raid that took place on a farm outside of Buffalo, N.Y., in 1961.

Senator DODD. I do not know the details, but I should think that it would be distressing to you that two of these antitank guns were used by criminals. What do you want to have as proof, that they killed somebody with these before you object to it?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Not at all. I would certainly not be happy about any criminal buying any of our material, but I must note that, apparently, the weapons themselves were not used actually in any crime. And from a statistical standpoint you have called my attention to this instance and one other where you said two young boys were

shooting at a building in New Jersey. That is 3 rifles out of 1,000 rifles. And that is rather a small percentage. You could take any of the weapons in this photograph, most of which are Americanmade the handguns and all of the ammunition which I see is American-made, and you could take it against any of the manufacturers in the United States, you could make the same hypothesis.

Senator DODD. I think that the record shows that 556 of these antitank guns were sold.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I, of course, do not know the exact statistics at this moment, but if we sold some 556 we have an instance of two weapons seized in a criminal hideout, not actually used in a crime, along with a great deal of other American-produced weapons and other foreign material-I can see automatic weapons-and one case of some young juveniles shelling

Senator DODD. How much do you want-do you think that we have to establish crimes in order to convince you that this is a bad situation, that people should not be able to buy antitank guns-criminals certainly should not be able to buy them-they should not have them even in their possession. Do you have to have the fact that 556 of them were used in the commission of a crime?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Not at all. I would join with you in considering prohibiting the use of any such weapons.

Senator DODD. I agree with you. What are you going to do with them?

Mr. CUMMINGS. They will be disposed of according to the American laws. And if we cannot dispose of them, we will not dispose of them at all, unless we can do it in that way.

Senator DODD. Do you think that you could include that in your affidavit?

Mr. CUMMINGS. As you pointed out these were shipped to a federally licensed dealer and under this law they could still be shipped.

Senator DODD. Do you not think that ought to be stopped? Really, now, do you not think that it is wise and prudent and sensible for this country to outlaw people selling antitank guns with live ammunition? Mr. CUMMINGS. I think none of us could disagree with your basic premise, but equally I have a fairly great confidence in the American people's capacity to use and own almost any type of weapon or other dangerous instruments. Look

Senator DODD. Very well.

Mr. CUMMINGS. As a boy myself on a farm in Virginia I had higher caliber weapons than these. I never used them in any crime. And they still today exist in our museum in Alexandria, Va. Artillery and heavy weapons have been available on the American market ever since the Republic was founded. I can show you catalogs 50 and 60 and 70 years old where heavy weapons have been available.

Senator DODD. You are resident in Monte Carlo?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes.

Senator DODD. What are the gun laws there?

Mr. CUMMINGS. In Monaco, as well as in France, in general any person can buy a sporting rifle without any requirement other than a normal police permit which is given automatically. For a pistol you have to have a special police permit and pass an examination that you are capable of handling it.

Senator DODD. Do you think that would be a good thing for us to bave in this country?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think on a local, regional law basis, if a standard law could be established that would be excellent, but there are interesting statistics in Europe regarding crime versus weapon requirements of governments. In England, for instance, where you have very stringent weapon laws you have at the present time an ever-increasing rate of crime with weapons. In Switzerland where you have, for all intents and purposes, no firearm laws and where in fact every male citizen must by law have a military rifle and/or machine pistol and/or machinegun in his house, there is practically no crime with weapons. Statistics are an interesting subject, because one can read them up or one can read them down.

Senator DODD. I am aware of that. I am trying to get your observations on these matters. Are you arguing that because England has a strict way of controlling the sale of firearms that crime has gone up? Mr. CUMMINGS. We have found in England that in spite of the very stringent firearms regulations, so far as I know as stringent as any civilized government in the world, it has no effect on the use of firearms in crime.

Senator DODD. I think that is a good example of what you said about statistics. That is all. Pardon me. I have just remembered something.

We have just had one incident involved in the misuse of this particular gun. I forgot about the shelling of the United Nations. Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not think that took place with a Lahti. Senator DODD. It was a bazooka, rather.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Because from the photos I saw in Europe it appeared to be some sort of a hand-manufactured bazooka-type weapon. Senator DODD. Well, now, do you know where that came from?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I do not know where the bazooka came from that shelled the United Nations.

Senator DODD. It came from the same company in New Jersey that this antitank gun came from.

Mr. CUMMINGS. No one can approve of such things, and no one can support the use illegally of any type of weapon and we certainly do

not.

Senator DODD. You got rid of yours after the incident in the United Nations, did you not?

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that we have bazookas in stock at the pres ent moment. That is an export item with us.

Senator DODD. And mortars?

Mr. CUMMINGS. Mortars we always have in stock.

Senator DODD. It must be quite a place over there.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I would welcome, if you and the subcommittee would visit us at any time, to give you a complete tour of it.

Senator DODD. No, thanks.

Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that you would find it rather interesting, Senator.

Senator DODD. I am sure that I would and that I would find it otherwise.

Thank you for appearing here today, Mr. Cummings.

Mr. CUMMINGS. Thank you for having me.

Senator DODD. I want to say for the record that we are bringing these hearings to a close today, in the sense that we will not have any more hearings. But we will leave the record open for 2 weeks. And