Senator DODD. What? Mr. CUMMINGS. He would have to swear to a fraudulent statement before a notary. And in the case of his age it would be fairly prima facie whether he was 18 or not. Senator DODD. But you do not do anything with the affidavit? You just file it you do not make any effort to ascertain whether it is true or not? Mr. CUMMINGS. That is correct; but I am sure that you can recognize the mechanical difficulty of trying to do that. Senator DODD. As I say, I am not criticizing your practice. It is better than nothing, but my point is, I think you will agree that it is really of no effectiveness in getting real control over this traffic in mail-order guns. Mr. CUMMINGS. I would not say that it has no effectiveness. Mr. CUMMINGS. It could be stronger. How would you propose to get a real control over that sort of thing, by eliminating it altogether? Senator DODD. We have had such proposals before the Congress. I understand that your records show that you sold through your mail-order outlet 18 rifles and 10,000 rounds of ammunition to someone in Mississippi who is involved with the Ku Klux Klan. Did you get an affidavit from this person? Mr. CUMMINGS. If they were rifles, he would not necessarily have to have filed an affidavit. One of my officers here advises me that he was a Federal dealer. Mr. CUMMINGS. So he had a license to receive such material. Was such material used in a crime? Senator DODD. I do not know whether it was used in a crime. I only know that I understand that your figures show that-your books and records show that. I merely asked you what you do in a case like that. There is a dealer, he is licensed. The license should be more difficult to get, I think. Everybody can get a dealer's license for $1. Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes; but even under this new bill anyone can buy it if he wants to pay the fee and under Senator DODD. I agree with that. Mr. CUMMINGS (continuing). Under this law, this new bill, we would still be obliged to ship such a man this material. Senator DODD. You asked whether these rifles were used in the commission of a crime. According to a news story from the Washington Evening Star of October 2, 1964, these men in Mississippi were connected with a racial bombing in that State and they had four of those rifles. I am not charging you with any responsibility for this-I am merely asking if it was true. The point is that this is what can happen. So you are trying to do something about it, I am sure, by having an affidavit signed, with certain types of records, but this is exactly what does happen; unless we have control over it, it will go on happening. I want to make clear that I am not suggesting that you did anything wrong, but this is what the situation is. (The article referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 153" and is as follows:) This is the cache of weapons, ammunition, blackjacks and other weapons seized by the FBI at McComb, Miss., with the arrest of three men on charges of bombing Negro homes.-AP Wirephoto. 3 in McComb Bombings McCOMB, Miss. (AP)-Three tion by state and federal au- state law carrying a maximum Authorities identified the men as Paul Dewey Wilson, 25, a railroad employe; Ernest F. Zeek, 25, an employe of an auto accessory firm; and Jimmy P. Wilson, 38, a service station attendant. The Wilsons are not related. They were whisked to Jack son Thursday after interroga-' EXHIBIT NO. 153-ARTICLE AND PHOTOGRAPH FROM WASHINGTON EVENING STAR, OCTOBER 2, 1964 49-588-65- -46 Mr. CUMMINGS. I, sir, appreciate that, Senator Dodd. I do not like to split hairs, but I would again note that even that newspaper story does not indicate that the weapons were improperly used in any way and that this bill itself would not prevent that. Senator DODD. Well, I did not mean that if the bill is passed it would prevent it. Mr. CUMMINGS. Because he is a licensed dealer. Senator DODD. The issuance of these licenses would have some control over that. I do not think that we should issue a license to that type of person. I hope that this would not permit that. I do not think that you would advocate that. Mr. CUMMINGS. How would the Treasury know that he was a member of the KKK? Senator DODD. I do not know. The Treasury knows a lot of things. They seem to have a way of finding out. Mr. CUMMINGS. I would agree with that. Senator DODD. S. 1592 has other provisions other than section 3 (e). Mr. CUMMINGS. That is in section 3 (e)? Senator DODD. Do you have any comments on other provisions in S. 1592? Mr. CUMMINGS. The provisions of that bill would make it far more difficult to our people who are engaged in the legitimate firearms business to operate at all. The tremendous discretionary powers given to the Treasury Department by this bill could lead to an administrative ball of snakes unparalleled and unprecedented in the firearms and sporting goods business in the United States. I see you shake your head. Senator DODD. I am only shaking it because you have said over and over again as have others at these hearings when I have asked that question of witness after witness. Mr. CUMMINGS. Why? Senator DODD. Why? Mr. CUMMINGS. Only because of past experiences in dealing with the Treasury Department, even on their present firearms legislative control position. For instance, it took 25 years of continual effort to change a small detail of the original national firearms law pertaining to barrel length, so that a certain category of sporting rifle could be legally included. The barrel length was set originally at 18 inches, strictly because of the lack of knowledge of standard commercial barrel lengths when a certain category was 16 inches. For 25 years efforts were made, supported by the National Rifle Association and the various firearms dealers to change that. They finally succeeded. But it takes 25 years to change a barrel length requirement, we shudder to think what would happen under the present bill with the tremendous discretionary powers and the large areas of confusion in the present bill which are not really spelled out as to what the Treasury Department would do. Such words as "The Secretary may issue, subject to discretion of the Secretary," and so forth and so on. I frankly am afraid of such words in a national law. I like to see beforehand what the menu is before I start to eat the food. Senator DODD. I will say to you, as I have said to others, that this is the only way that I know of that this Government can operate. And the language used in the bill is the language recommended in the Supreme Court decision. I do not think there is anything outrageous about it. I do not know why you always fear some difficulties that would tend to destroy your Government when you give some Cabinet officer or someone under him some discretion in enforcing the law. Mr. CUMMINGS. Our fear is based on the past history with the Treasury Department. There is another point I may note. This bill transfers the responsibility for controlling imports from the Department of State to the Treasury Department. And to me that is prima facie absurd. What possible control of knowledge abroad of the arms flow movement throughout the world does the Treasury Department have or can the Treasury Department obtain except by going back to the very Department that is now charged with the importation of this material? Senator DODD. You prefer to have it remain in the State Department? Mr. CUMMINGS. Without any question. How can I go into an American Embassy in Afghanistan, for example, and say, "I have purchased from the Afghan Army so many items, can you please give me the present policy on imports?" The Embassy can do that immediately now. If the Treasury Department has the responsibility, all they can do is refer it back to State and then it is "ping-ponged" around in the Government for an indefinite period of time. It just seems totally illogical to me to give that import control authority to the Treasury Department. Senator DODD. Well, the Treasury Department assesses the taxes and the duties, does it not? Mr. CUMMINGS. Yes; because the duty is on the material when it arrives in the United States. That is quite logical and normal. Senator DODD. It has a real vital interest then in this traffic. Mr. CUMMINGS. In duty, but the U.S. Customs Department has nothing to do with the enforcement of this law. Senator DODD. I understand that. Mr. CUMMINGS. I think that it would be a disaster to have the import control given to the Treasury Department. If it has to go to another department, which I do not for a moment believe it should, it should go to the Department of Commerce. At least they are represented in every Embassy abroad. Senator DODD. Is there any other department that you recommend over the Treasury Department-would you take anybody but the Treasury? Mr. CUMMINGS. I said that if it must go to another department except State I would recommend only the Department of Commerce, but in any case, State is the only possibility to control this material abroad. Senator DODD. You would not be prejudiced about this, because you would be able to carry out a very large business around the world with the controls within the jurisdiction of the State Department. Mr. CUMMINGS. No, Senator, and if you saw our continual battle with the Department of State you would perhaps be amazed that I would even support them on this, but really it is the only logical department to handle overseas control of weapons. Senator DODD. Well, I noticed that you said in your statement that the importation of such weapons, referring to the weapons you have de |