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Photograph of J. P. Strom, Director, South Carolina Law Enforcement Division, and other officers with .50 caliber machine gun and ammunition seized at Fort Mottee Airstrip, Calhoun County, S.C.

Mr. STROM. Mr. Chairman, it is a pleasure to appear before your committee as chief of the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division. In 1960, we received information that these guns were located near an airstrip in a rural area. Upon investigation, we found that these guns were there. Some were in fine condition, some were not. We made every effort to trace back these guns to some agency of the government who had originally owned these guns, but without any success whatsoever. It seems that these guns had been declared surplus and had gotten into the hands of different dealers and we never were able to successfully trace ownership. In fact we never could get a Federal prosecution.

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Photograph of boxes of .50 caliber ammunition seized at Fort Motte Airstrip, Calhoun County, S.C.

This could have been a very serious matter in our State had these guns gotten into the wrong hands.

I have another picture here with several guns where the Black Muslims came down from New York in 1960 on a mission to buy weapons to carry back to New York where they were not readily available in New York and as accessible as they were in South Carolina. One member of this gang admitted that he was a member of the Black Muslims and that that was their business to tour the country and buy guns to carry them back to New York.

(The photograph referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 143," and is as follows:)

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Photograph of weapons purchased in South Carolina by 4 members of the Black Muslim group from New York City.

Mr. STROM. Gentlemen, for these junk guns that the Attorney General mentioned to you, here is a gun that a man fired as target practice and put his own eye out.

Gentlemen, through my years of experience I started in 1938 in the law enforcement business-I have found that a man that buys a gun of this caliber is a very low type, irresponsible person, most of the time under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and nearly every time he has robbery on his mind and murder in his heart if it is necessary to murder in order to rob a man, to get a few dollars to satisfy his habit of alcohol or dope.

In my opinion, gentlemen, the dealer that would sell a gun to an irresponsible person is just about as guilty as the man that commits a murder with a gun of this type. It is my strong belief, gentlemen, that if standards and specifications could be set for guns whereby you could not have a gun for $8 or sold for 50 cents down and 50 cents a weekthe people that will pay $8 or $10 for this gun would not think about spending as much as $25 for a gun. They would do without the gun.

Senator BURDICK. Will you describe and give the name and make of that gun you are holding?

Mr. STROM. This is a Rhom .22 converted. It is an imported gun. They send it into this country literally by the thousands, I know into South Carolina. We would not have any way to stop those guns on a State level at the price that they are being sold for. Irresponsible people will take them out into the rural areas and sell them for $1 down and $1 a week, 50 cents down and 50 cents a week, and a lot of the youthful people, teenagers, that buy these guns, they will shoot a man between Friday and Sunday night or Saturday night just because they have got a gun. They get half drunk and they want everybody to know they have a gun and finally they will shoot somebody.

That happens. I think it is necessary that we have some type of legislation to control these junk guns. I cannot see why people should be allowed to have telescopic sights. I do not see anything that is good sportsmanship about a man putting a telescope on a deer or a bear where he can bring him right up to his eye. Those guns are made to kill policemen, and so many times they buy them with the thought if they are arrested or there is an attempt to arrest them by police, they can use them at long range and can do a lot of damage.

I think serious thought should be given to people who should be allowed to have a telescope on a rifle.

Senator BURDICK. This life in the Congress is a busy one, and it will be necessary at this time to recess until Senator Dodd returns in just a few minutes.

(Whereupon, a short recess was taken, after which the hearing was resumed.)

Senator DODD. I am sorry we had to recess, but I had to go to a conference on the voting rights bill.

Will you resume wherever your were.

Mr. MCLEOD. Mr. Chairman, Chief Strom had just recounted an incident that occurred in 1960 with respect to possession of firearms and ready purchase of firearms by certain members of the Black Muslim organization. I merely wanted to add in connection with that, that Chief Strom has told me that the prime purpose that the four people who were involved in this incident had was primarily to buy ammunition which was adaptable to automatic weapons, .30 caliber, I believe, and calibers of that nature.

Additionally with respect to the types of weapons which we have here and they are obviously the same type that are on the board over here in the committee room-to give an isolated instance of this, in one small rural town of approximately 6,500 population one dealer in that town, without any requirement, and in fact at that time in violation of State law, without any requirement of credentials and adaptability and fitness to purchase firearms to be demonstrated, sold about 900 weapons, to the best of our information, in 1 year alone in one small outlet in a relatively small town.

With respect to the provisions of S. 1592 it is our opinion that this bill possesses some features which appear to be somewhat restrictive. It is suggested that serious consideration be given to permitting the sale by licensed dealers, manufacturers, and importers to nonresident individuals under stringent regulations. It would appear feasible and desirable to authorize the sale of weapons to persons who submit in

proper documentary form proof that they are eligible to acquire or possess a weapon under the laws of the State of their residence and that they are in fact residents of the area from which they seek to make purchase of such a weapon. Such a provision would preserve the desirable objective of seeing that only fit persons, as determined by the laws of the various States, could purchase firearms by mail.

Additionally, it is suggested that consideration be given to establishing a means whereby bona fide gun collectors and hobbyists could acquire weapons in interstate commerce. This would, admittedly, impose difficult administrative problems, but those should not be insurmountable.

It is my understanding that a procedure has been incorporated in the bill during the course of passage in this respect.

In summary, the ready availability of weapons, particularly small arms, has presented a serious law enforcement problem in South Carolina. We have attempted to meet that problem by enacting the Thomason Act, which operates only within the borders of our State. and which has the effect of prohibiting the purchase, sale, or possession of pistols within South Carolina by persons clearly unfit to possess a

weapon.

But, unless mail-order sales of weapons, contrary to our State law. can be effectively prevented, the flood of pistols will continue. Adequate Federal law is required to enable us to enforce our own gun law. This can be achieved by Federal legislation which would permit only citizens qualified under State law to acquire firearms in interstate commerce.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. On that last point, there is no uniform State law with respect to eligibility as to the purchase of weapons, so I expect that it would vary considerably from State to State.

Mr. MCLEOD. That is quite true, Mr. Chairman. In fact, I think some State laws are totally inadequate or totally lacking. That is quite true.

Senator DODD. That is one of the reasons why we wrote a prohibition against mail-order sales in the bill. I am fearful that it will be unworkable and that we will not be a great deal better off under those circumstances.

Do you have any questions, Mr. Perian?

Mr. PERIAN. Mr. McLeod, it is evident from your statement that the small-caliber pistol and the revolver pose serious problems to law enforcement in South Carolina. Do you have any way of determining if these guns are sent into South Carolina by mail-order houses?

Mr. MCLEOD. We do not. We can only express an educated guess. It would be my opinion-and I would like to have Chief Strom's comment on this also that the vast majority of them are either bought by mail-order procedures or bootlegged, so to speak, across the State lines. A large proportion of them are sent into South Carolina by mail-order houses.

Mr. PERIAN. Chief, would you care to comment?

Mr. STROM. Mr. Chairman, in my opinion a lot of those guns are shipped in, and a lot of them are bought direct from importers who buy them from Germany, France, Italy-those areas. But in my opinion, if you do away with that junk gun which sells for from $7

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