Mr. BROSTRON. Yes, sir.

Senator BURDICK. Í am sort of curious how you can conceal a .22 rifle.

Mr. BROSTRON. I do not have the data connected with each of those 12 cases, Senator. But I would surmise that in those cases they were this was in connection with the commission of another crime.

In other words, it may have been that one of these individuals was shooting at someone, a report went in, a search went on, and we have had holdup men arrested who had concealed under their clothing, or under a coat, a .22 or a sawed-off shotgun.

Senator BURDICK. You cannot give me any specifics on these cases today?

Mr. BROSTRON. No, sir; I do not have the data.

Senator BURDICK. Now, the chairman asked you about the amount of crime committed by the long gun, hunting gun, shotgun, .30-30, whatever it is. Based upon your experience as a law enforcement officer, is it not-is there any case you know where there was premeditation to rob a bank, rob a filling station, or rob any other institutions, where the weapon employed was a long gun

?

Mr. BROSTRON. I have seen some cases where they used sawed-off shotguns.

Senator BURDICK. Just a minute. That is a sawed-off shotgun. But I mean a long hunting weapon.

Mr. BROSTRON. Very, very seldom.

Senator BURDICK. It is in these crimes of passion, these crimes of violence, where they use shotguns or rifles or anything they can get their hands on.

I notice in your case here there was a son that killed his parents. And we had a case here the other day where a wife killed a husband. It is these crimes of violence where they take the closest weapon at hand-where any weapon is involved. Is that too much of a generalization?

Mr. BROSTRON. I would say that what you have just stated, Senator, would hold true in many cases.

Senator BURDICK. Yes. In other words, if a man embarked upon a trail of crime, he is going to be using a concealed weapon-and that is really the culprit involved in most of the cases?

Mr. BROSTRON. Those are the people who as a professional police officer I am concerned about-the people who move about the streets with weapons concealed on them.

Senator BURDICK. That is right.

Well, then, there is some distinction, even in your mind-there certainly is in my mind-to get a balance here in this legislation, so that we do not unduly penalize the substantial people who use hunting guns-hunting rifles and things of that nature in an orderly and legal manner. Some of us feel there should be some difference in treatment between the gun users in a legitimate fashion and the others. And based upon your testimony, in the premeditated crimes in your area, the long gun plays a very minor role.

Mr. BROSTRON. Certainly the cases where firearms are used more frequently are the small guns-in the robberies and the assaults on people on the street. And that is what we of course are trying to control. Senator BURDICK. Thank you very much.

Mr. BROSTRON. You are very welcome, Senator.

Senator DODD. Sawed-off shotguns are not for sale, are they?
Mr. BROSTRON. No, sir, Senator.

Senator DODD. You buy a regular one and saw it off?

Mr. BROSTRON. Well, that is ordinarily done. There may be some who may purchase one already sawed off from somebody in the underworld.

Senator DODD. I know. But they are not made that way?

Mr. BROSTRON. No, not that I know of.

Senator BURDICK. Have you ever seen a brandnew shotgun sawed off in the last few years in your experience?

Mr. BROSTRON. No, sir.

Senator DODD. I have not either-but that does not mean they are not being sawed off.

Well, you are an excellent witness, I will say that.

Senator Burdick and I have both been notified that we must be at the Judiciary Committee. We have a meeting going on. So we wi!! have to recess this hearing.

I feel very badly about Major Jacobsmeyer, who I know is one of the outstanding authorities in this country. And I say this with full knowledge of what I am saying. He is one of the outstanding authorities in this country on the subject of juvenile crime.

I particularly wanted to hear your testimony publicly. not anything I can do about it. It is the rules of the Senate. to be at the meeting if the committee insists.

There is
We have

I would suggest-do you have a prepared statement, Major? Mr. JACOBSMEYER. I have a little prepared statement that is not written down.

Senator DODD. Well, I would like to get it on the record.

Perhaps the way to do it is if you can stay over. I would like to hear you.

I am very earnest about this. You are, in my judgment anyway, one of the best in the country.

If you could stay over, we could hear you tomorrow morning; otherwise, would you submit a statement that we could put in the record? You make your choice about it.

Mr. JACOBSMEYER. I will do that. Thank you for the kind words. Senator DODD. They may be kind, but they are truthful. I think what I said is well known to everyone in the law enforcement business. Mr. JACOBSMEYER. We think highly of you and of the committee and that is the reason we were so happy to be present here today.

We are hopeful that other legislators may be more cognizant in these times of the restrictions that are being placed against police officers by court opinions and by the use of what you have in mind here, to increase our effectiveness.

Senator DODD. I hope so, too.

Thank you both very much.

(The statement referred to is as follows:)

STATEMENT OF COMDR. ADOLPH C. JACOBSMEYER, OF THE ST. LOUIS POLICE

DEPARTMENT

It gives me a great deal of pleasure to be here this morning to testify befor this important committee in behalf of Senate bill 1592. I reiterate the grave o cern as expressed by Chief Brostron in regard to the importance it has for al

law enforcement officials. In connection with the restrictions handed down in recent court opinions relative to search and seizure and interrogation of suspects in criminal matters, particularly those dealing with illegal firearms, I feel it is time responsible legislators, such as are represented here today, do everything in their power to provide police officers with the legal tools to make the job of the police officer more effective.

Immediately upon release of the interim report of the Committee on the Judiciary entitled "Interstate Traffic in Mail-Order Firearms," I requested and received copies of this report in sufficient numbers to enable all commanders of the St. Louis Police Department to become acquainted with this problem. This item was then included on the agenda for discussion at one of our captains meetings. These commanding officers of the eight police districts comprising the city of St. Louis then reported back to me verbally as to whether or not St. Louis had the problem as described in the report. These officers checked with postal authorities, officials and personnel of various common carirers, and other interested parties in St. Louis to ascertain the movement of handguns in and around the city of St. Louis. These officers reported to me that they had many conflicting reports as to the receiving of firearms. Most common carrier officials stated that it was the policy of the company not to handle guns although personnel working for them admitted that there was quite a bit of traffic of firearms, some legal and some under suspicious circumstances. Parcel post inspectors readily admitted that parcels containing guns would be detected only when the package was damaged and part of the weapon would be exposed. Officials of the railway express agency reported a great deal of legal gun traffic with Sears, Roebuck & Co., Montgomery Ward & Co., and Alden Co., but were emphatic in denying delivery of weapons to juveniles or persons who could not properly identify themselves. The various commanders did learn one thing: that it is a difficult matter to actually determine, with the present controls at hand, the actual extent of the problem. Although not all the commanders were polled as to their viewpoint of the provisions of Senate bill 1592, many did express the need for legislation as proposed to help control the easy accessibility of guns. Several voiced their opinion that on New Year's Eve it seems as though everyone and his brother has a gun.

One unit of the special operations area of which I have command is the tactical deployment division, which consists of the mobile reserve unit, canine unit, operative deployment unit, and squad 7 which operates in police districts with high crime rates. Since January 1 of this year to the middle of June of this year these officers have stopped and searched and found 256 persons carrying, in most instances, handguns. The arrested persons were charged with carrying a concealed weapon and warrants were applied for in all these cases. However, due to frailities in the law, only 81 warrants were issued. Since the law of arrest, and search and seizure, is being weakened rather than strengthened, another course of action must be acquired to strengthen the ability of the law enforcement officer to combat the easy accessibility of firearms. It is for this reason that I am wholeheartedly in favor of this bill.

Of particular interest to me as former commander of the juvenile division, which unit is directly under my supervision at the present time as commander of special operations, is the welfare of some 231,000 youths under the age of 18 years who reside within the confines of the city of St. Louis. Most of this youthful population consists of good law-abiding citizens who really want to live in an ordered society.

It is to be expected that youth will receive proper mature guidance from its elders, whether they be parents or lawmakers. It, therefore, is incumbent upon responsible lawmakers to enact laws which will control the few for the welfare of the majority. Each year since 1959 there has been an increase in the number of youths who come to the attention of the police and the juvenile courts. Records indicate more viciousness among the youth, and so far this year there has been an increase in the number of aggravated assaults and robberies with the use of a gun. After interrogation, we learn that the gun was obtained easily in the manner described in the interim report or as the result of a business or residence burglary. After acquiring a gun, the juvenile feels big, as mentioned by Chief Brostron earlier this morning, and said youth usually continues his criminal career until he shoots someone or is shot himself, either of which is tragic. Experience has shown us that it isn't necessary for kids to make zip guns anymore. They can obtain a weapon the easy way by mail order or by committing burglary.

In my opinion no law-abiding citizen should object to a law, such as proposed. which has as its end result safeguarding the life of its citizenry.

Thank you.

(Documents presented by Commander Jacobsmeyer were marked "Exhibits Nos. 129, 130, 131, 132, and 133," and are as follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 129

INTRADEPARTMENT REPORT AND CORRESPONDENCE SHEET

METROPOLITAN POLICE DEPARTMENT,
City of St. Louis, June 25, 1965.

To: Maj. Adolph C. Jacobsmeyer, special operations commander.

From: Sgt. Glenn A. Pauly, crime analysis section.
Subject: Survey of guns used in crimes in St. Louis.

The results of the survey made on crimes in which the suspect used a gun as his weapon are as follows:

Flourishing a dangerous and deadly weapon:

1. Of the total of 40 such incidents, only 1 report was obtained which revealed the exact address in the city where the gun was purchased.

2. A total of 3 guns were obtained in Illinois.

3. A total of 2 guns were obtained in States other than Missouri or Illinois.

4. A total of 10 guns were obtained in So. Louis, exact address unknown.

5. A total of 24 guns were obtained, means unknown.

Carrying concealed weapon:

1. Of the total of 190 such incidents, only 3 reports were obtained which revealed the exact address in the city where the gun was purchased.

2. A total of 14 guns were obtained in Illinois.

3. A total of 10 guns were obtained in States other than Missouri or Illinois.

4. A total of 6 guns were obtained in a Missouri city other than St. Louis.

5. A total of 24 guns were obtained in St. Louis, exact address unknown.

6. A total of 63 guns were obtained in St. Louis as gifts, from a friend. etc.

7. A total of 70 guns were obtained, means unknown.

Aggravated assaults:

1. Of the total of 59 such incidents, only 2 reports were obtained which revealed the exact address in the city where the gun was purchased.

2. A total of 6 guns were obtained in Illinois.

3. A total of 1 gun was obtained in a State other than Missouri or Illinois.

4. A total of 8 guns were obtained in St. Louis, exact address unknown. 5. A total of 42 guns were obtained, means unknown.

Any such crimes such as robbery, rape, homicide, and the like, where a gun could have been used as the weapon, did not contain enough information in the reports to warrant sufficient data for this survev. Respectfully.

GLENN A. PAULY, Sergeant, Crime Analysis Section

FLOURISHING A DANGEROUS AND DEADLY WEAPON

Exact place where gun was obtained in St. Louis: .22-caliber "Sears" rifle purchased from Sears, Roebuck on South Grand. Total, 1; 3 percent.

Guns that were obtained in Illinois :

.38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver, purchased in East St. Louis, IL .32-caliber Iver Johnson, purchased from Lee's Gun Exchange, 1837 State Street, Granite City, Ill.

.22-caliber automatic, make unknown, purchased in East St. Louis, III. Total, 3; 8 percent.

Guns obtained in State other than Missouri or Illinois :
.22-caliber Smith & Wesson, purchased in South Carolina.
..22-caliber Rohm (German), purchased in Fort Worth, Tex.
Total, 2; 5 percent.

Guns obtained in St. Louis, exact address unknown:

Springfield single-barrel shotgun, taken from house in the city.

.22-caliber Iver Johnson, taken from house in the city.

.25-caliber Browning automatic, obtained from an unknown friend.

.22-caliber Winchester rifle taken from elders.

.22-caliber Rohm (German), purchased from an unknown person at Greyhound terminal.

.32-caliber Iver Johnson, taken from house (juvenile).

.22-caliber rifle, make unknown, found in the city.

.45-caliber Colt U.S. Government-make automatic, purchased from an unknown male.

7.65-caliber automatic, make unknown, found at tracks at Sarah and Hodiamont.

.38-caliber Smith & Wesson, taken in theft.

Total, 10; 25 percent.

Unknown how or where gun was obtained:

.22-caliber Mondial.

.22-caliber Brevettata.

.38-caliber Smith & Wesson.

.22-caliber Harrington & Richardson.

.22-caliber Winchester.

20-gage Harrington & Richardson.

20-gage Harrington & Richardson.

.38-caliber U.S. revolver.

.32-caliber Iver Johnson revolver. .22-caliber Thalson (German).

.22-caliber RTS tear gas.

.38-caliber Smith & Wesson.

.38-caliber Smith & Wesson.

.32-caliber Paramount.

.22-caliber Sears rifle.

6.35 mm. Galesi-Breschia (Italian).

.32-caliber American.

.22-caliber Rohm (German).

.38-caliber Colt Cobra.

.38-caliber Forehand Arms.

7.65-mm. Mauser automatic.

12-gage Harrington & Richardson.

.22-caliber Rohm.

16-gage Hopkins & Allen.

Total, 24; 60 percent.

CARRYING CONCEALED WEAPON

Exact place where gun was purchased in St. Louis :

38-caliber revolver, Iver Johnson, purchased from Midwest Arms, 6440 Chippewa.

.38-caliber Iver Johnson, purchased at Mary's B-B-Q from an unknown male at 1296 Hodiamont.

.38-caliber Colt Special purchased at Kay Photo Gun Shop at Eighth and

Pine.

Total, 3; 1.6 percent.

Guns that were obtained in Illinois:

.22-caliber E-G Smith & Wesson from Italy, bought at a tavern at 4900 Caseyville, East St. Louis, Ill., for $30.

.22-caliber Ruger long rifle pistol, American make, bought in East St. Louis, Ill., for $5.

6.35-caliber Galeso-Brescia make, bought in Belleville, Ill.

.22-caliber Standard Sentinal revolver, bought at Wittels Gun Shop at 204 State Street, Alton, Ill., for $42.50.

.25-caliber Beretta automatic, bought gun in tavern in East St. Louis, Ill., on Collinsville Avenue for $30.