Senator FONG. It would be very interesting. Will you supply those figures to us?

Attorney General KATZENBACH. Yes, sir; I will.

(The information was submitted, marked "Exhibit No. 9" and is as follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 9

According to "Uniform Crime Reports-1963," copy attached, the average State murder rate per 100,000 population was 3.9 in the seven States requiring permit or equivalent for the purchase of hand guns. The States referred to above are Hawaii, Massachusetts, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New York, and North Carolina. In the remaining States the rate was 4.7 murders per 100,000 population. The national average was 4.5.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. To return to your earlier question, Mr. Perian, Mr. Hoover has reported that about 70 percent of the homicides occur in the family unit or otherwise among acquaintances. They are, for the most part, impulse killings. In 1964, a gun was used in 57 percent of the cases.

It is this type of murder to which the easy accessibility and lethal nature of a gun can contribute. I think easy accessibility is important in that context. The gun makes murder easy in that kind of context and I think that the ability to get guns by mail order, just for the heck of it, contributes even in that kind of murder situation.

Mr. PERIAN. Senator Burdick had a question.

Senator BURDICK. Mr. Chairman, I have one question before I have to leave on one phase of this, at least.

Mr. Katzenbach, I live in the wide open spaces. The population is sparse. The towns are considerable distances apart.

As I understand from your testimony, the dealer in ammunition, the dealer in .22 caliber ammunition would have to get a $100 license. Out in my State as I say, the distances are great and .22 caliber ammunition and other ammunition is dispensed through a general store or gas station, probably all they have in the town and in a great many of these towns, literally hundreds of towns in North Dakota.

Now, a fee of $100 for one of those smaller merchants will be quite a burden on him.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. I think you make a legitimate point on that, Senator. I think we would be willing to consider permitting the sale of sporting-type ammunition-shotgun shells or 22 caliber-that type of ammunition alone and without guns, as warranting an exemption from the licensing requirements.

I think we would be prepared to consider that or a very much lower fee with respect to the sale of that type of ammunition. I am not sure that I would include ammunition for that gun over here, the large one in the back.

Senator BURDICK. These are small caliber rifles and to some extent some of those people do have to rely on getting their .22 caliber rifles and their sporting goods through the mails.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. I would suppose, Senator, there are local mail order outlets within your State for the purchase of guns and other responsible dealers in guns. It seems to me those

people who have too great a distance to drive can, nonetheless, order and purchase any gun they wish from one of the dealers within the State, and it can be delivered by mail, subject to regulations which the Secretary of the Treasury would promulgate.

I would concede a minor inconvenience to a farmer who lives & long way from the city and who wishes to purchase a gun for his 18-year-old boy or something of that kind, say for Christmas. He is going to have a minor inconvenience, but he can purchase it within his State. He can purchase it from a dealer within his State. He can purchase the gun that he wants. The regulation on that would not, it seems to me, be too burdensome and it would be possible for dealers within that State to know something of the nature of the persons within that State.

Senator BURDICK. I want to make it clear that I think the interstate sales to minors and people with known criminal records, or mental defectives should be a limitation. But there are cases where some of our people out in the Badlands do use the mail order system to get guns and rifles.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. But the point is they still can get it from dealers within that State.

Senator BURDICK. That is right.

Senator DODD. Anything further?
Senator BURDICK. That is all.

Senator DODD. Counsel?

Mr. PERIAN. I think what Senator Burdick was driving at is that there has been a great deal of concern expressed over the effect this bill would have on some 400 firms in this country that depend entirely or in part on the mail order business and from your statement we can assume that these companies can still function if they operate through a new system of State dealerships.

Is that a correct assumption?

Attorney General KATZENBACH. They will have to distribute through local outlets and ship only to local outlets. I have no doubt this is going to change their system of distribution and have some impact on it. They cannot simply mail to anybody who fills out a form and sends it in to them and I suppose this is going to make it a little more difficult for them.

Mr. PERIAN. That is all.

Senator DODD. That is exactly the point as I understand the bill. Attorney General KATZENBACH. I want to make it clear-I want to make it more difficult for them.

Senator DODD. And so do I. I think it makes sense to do so. Mr. Attorney General, you referred to the assassination of President Kennedy and the ease with which Oswald obtained the rifle and pistol. I suppose we all know that there is a continuing possibility of further attempts on Presidents lives.

Have you any information relative to the threats on the life of the President which have come to your attention since you assumed the capacity of Attorney General?

Attorney General KATZENBACH. Well, the threats continue to be made as they have been with respect to every President. This is the responsibility of the Secret Service, to check these out. Of course,

making a threat upon the President's life is a crime and there have been instances where, through the preventive work of the Secret Service, people who had access to firearms and who were mentally unstable have been taken into custody.

Senator DODD. Then the mail-order traffic makes the task of the law enforcement people much more difficult, does it not?

Attorney General KATZENBACH. It makes it just infinitely more difficult and it discourages the efforts at the local level to have a sensible system within a State because it is so easy to evade.

What we are attempting to do is close those loopholes so that States can take reasonable measures themselves.

Senator DODD. I am very glad you made the point in response to a question that, of course, this bill will not put an end to all homicides by gun. I do not know of any sensible person who has ever suggested it would and no law ever operates perfectly. I am sure this will not do so. I believe you made a good point and I am sure the committee will be interested and Members of Congress, that it will help and that is all it is intended to do. It seems to me the argument that it will not put an end to all homicides is akin to the proposition that we ought to wipe off the statute books of the States the laws against homicide because murder still goes on. It is that kind of logic. This argument is being used over and over again in the propaganda put out.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. I think, Mr. Chairman, the only way we will ever eliminate crime in this country too, is to repeal the criminal laws.

Senator DODD. Well, Mr. Attorney General, I say again I am extremely grateful to you for your testimony. It has been very helpful to us. You are so well informed on this subject, better than anyone I know, and we are grateful to you.

Thank you again.

Attorney General KATZENBACH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. We are happy to have Mr. Stephen Ailes, Secretary of the Army.

Mr. Secretary, we are glad that you would take the time to come here and give us your views on the legislation. I know you have had considerable experience in the Department of the Army and as Under Secretary and Secretary, your testimony is very valuable.

You go right ahead, sir.

STATEMENT OF HON. STEPHEN AILES, SECRETARY OF THE ARMY

Secretary AILES. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am happy to present to you today the views of the Department of Defense on S. 1592, the bill which amends the Federal Firearms Act to accomplish the control over firearms recommended by the President in his message to the Congress of March 8, 1965.

As you know, Mr. Chairman, the Secretary of Defense has advised you in his letter of April 30, 1965, that the Department of Defense strongly recommends enactment of S. 1592. We support the President's views concerning the need for additional controls on the importation and distribution of firearms.

No function of the Department of Defense will be impaired by enactment of this legislation. As the Secretary of Defense has stated:

More realistic Federal control of the distribution of firearms in the stream of commerce between the States and between the United States and foreign states is clearly in our best national interest.

Of the activities of the Department of Defense, the one most immediately affected by the bill is the civilian marksmanship program administered by the Department of the Army.

While enactment of the bill would require some minor changes in the program's administrative procedures, nevertheless these changes will not affect the effectiveness of the program, and the program will be carried on fully in accord with the purposes of the bill and its requirements.

To explain this point, I would like first to describe the civilian marksmanship program and then indicate how the program can be conducted in compliance with the bill.

I will conclude by stating our plans for ascertaining the true usefulness of the program to national defense.

Since 1903, the Congress has directed the Secretary of the Army to provide a civilian marksmanship training program under the direction of the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice.

The Board consists of 25 members appointed by the Secretary of the Army and includes representatives of the three military services, the Coast Guard, the Armed Forces Reserve components, the Selective Service System, the National Rifle Association of America (NRA), and the country at large.

The activities of the Board are authorized and directed in sections 4307 to 4313 of title 10, United States Code, and are supported every year by a separate appropriation in the Defense Appropriation Act.

The President's budget for the coming fiscal year requests $459,000 for this purpose.

The principal functions of the Board are (1) to promote small arms practice among citizens who are not members of the Armed Forces. (2) hold small arms competitions, and (3) issue, loan, or sell small arms, ammunition, and targets necessary for this program.

The Board's programs are administered for the Board by the Office of the Director of Civilian Marksmanship in my office.

The Board's promotion of rifle and pistol practice is accomplished primarily through supporting civilian rifle and pistol clubs enrolled with the Director of Civilian Marksmanship.

On January 1 of this year, there were 5,697 clubs enrolled with the Director of Čivilian Marksmanship. The total enrollment in these clubs was 413,371 persons.

The clubs are of three main types-senior clubs, composed of members 17 years of age and over; junior clubs, composed of members between 12 and 18 years of age, supervised by an adult; and clubs affiliated with colleges or with schools maintaining National Defense Cadet Corps programs.

To be eligible for enrollment with the Director of Civilian Marksmanship, the senior clubs must have 10 or more civilian members, and junior clubs must have a certified adult instructor.

All clubs must have access to adequate range facilities and must agree to conduct marksmanship training for 9 months of the year.

The clubs must be operated without regard to race or creed, and they must be affiliated with the National Rifle Association. Before accepting a club's application, the NRA institutes a check through the State adjutant general and the rifle and pistol association of the State in which the club is located to determine that the club's officials are American citizens without criminal backgrounds and not members of subversive organizations.

The actual investigation varies somewhat from State to State, depending upon facilities available and local regulations. In New York, for example, the names furnished are checked through the State Criminal Investigation and Identification Division. Prior to final approval of NRA affiliation, the club must also obtain endorsements from two community leaders.

The Board supports these clubs by distributing ammunition and issuing caliber .30 rifles, caliber .22 rifles, and caliber .45 automatic pistols on a loan basis. These are issued to clubs on a ratio of approximately 1 weapon for every 11 members. The clubs are responsible for the safety and care of the weapons. Ammunition is issued once a year on the basis of the number of members in the club who have fired approved marksmanship qualification courses during the previous year.

Currently, there are about 18,000 caliber .22 rifles, 12,500 caliber .30 rifles, and 4,300 caliber .45 pistols on loan to the clubs.

The Director of Civilian Marksmanship is accountable for all these weapons and maintains an accurate list of them by serial number. The Board conducts the National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio, each year. As an integral part of these matches, Small Arms Firing Schools are conducted by the U.S. Army Infantry School under the general supervision of the National Board. These schools provide the latest information and techniques concerning marksmanship instruction.

The law which directs these activities of the Board also provides for the sale, at cost, of weapons and ammunition necessary for target practice. Such weapons and ammunition as may be sold have, of course, been determined to be no longer needed by the Government. The principal types of weapons sold under this program have been caliber .30 1903-A3 "Springfield" rifles, caliber .30 M1 carbines, and caliber .45 pistols.

Under the Army's policy, no more than one weapon of each type may be sold to any one purchaser. Under the law, sales may be made only to members of the National Rifle Association.

To be a member of the National Rifle Association, an individual must pledge that he is a citizen of the United States, not a member of an organization which seeks the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government or any State or local government, and not a person convicted of a crime of violence.

In addition to proving his NRA membership, the purchaser must also comply with all applicable State laws concerning purchase and ownership of weapons and must submit the forms and certificates required by such laws at the time of purchase.

În general, we believe that the civilian marksmanship program is being carried out properly, responsibly, and in accordance with the purposes intended by the Congress. We know of nothing to indicate