order traffic in firearms. This is quite misleading, because States like Vermont and cities like Milwaukee with very few restrictive firearms laws, have records among the best in the Nation for few crimes through firearms. Notwithstanding the shocking headlines in the daily press, the problem is overemphasized. Let me quote some very illustrative statistics from my own county, a normal community with a popula tion of about 170,000, the county seat being Santa Rosa with about 40,000. We are within 1 hour by automobile from San Francisco, and have a serious problem of juvenile delinquency because we get much of the riffraff, pleasure bent, from the big cities in our vacation area of the redwood empire. Here, in my State of some 18 million population, in this average community, firearms are responsible for homicides and fatal accidents in almost insignificant numbers. I have here official reports of my county coroner for the years 1962 through 1964. Mr. Chairman, I want to support my statement that the firearm fatalities are in almost insignificant numbers as compared to other similar problems in that very normal community. In 1962, motor vehicle fatalities numbered 72, deaths from accidental falls numbered 19, and deaths from guns-including hunting accidents, home accidents, law enforcement, self-defense, and crime, but excluding suicides-numbered 1. That, by the way, was the case of a woman brutally beaten by a drunken husband who left her alone for a while and told him, "Well, if you do that to me again, I will kill you." He came at her again and she seized his loaded .22 rifle from the corner and did it. That was the only one in Sonoma County in 1962. according to the reports of our coroners. Senator DODD. That is in the county? Mr. COMSTOCK. In the county, yes. Senator DODD. May I ask you a question? If you refer to Santa Rosa, that is a county seat, is it not? Mr. COMSTOCK. That is a county seat. Senator DODD. That is where you reside? Senator DODD. And that is the city that since 1921 has had a permanent criminal statute for the carrying of concealed weapons. Do you think that has anything to do with your low rate there? Mr. COMSTOCK. I do, indeed, sir. I think our California dangerous weapons control law is one of the finest in the entire State. It is a very useful one, a very logical and useful one, sir, and is the outgrowth of the Uniform Firearms Act which was produced by an expresident of the NRA in conjunction with the Committee of the Amer ican Bar and which many States rejected, but which California embraced and has, from time to time, improved upon, and our concealed weapons law is a good one. It covers not only firearms but brass knuckles and switchblade knives and many of the other dangerous weapons that can be concealed upon the person. In 1963, fatalities from automobiles 59, from falls 36, and from guns 9, of which 3 were accidents in the home, 2 were justifiable self-defense, 3 resulted from quarrels over marital trouble, 2 from angry other quarrels and 1 unknown. In 1964, motor vehicle fatalities rose to 74. accidental fatalities from falls 36, and none from guns. These items do not include suicides, and I cannot be sure that our coroner reported all cases, but by law he is required to report all deaths due to gunshot and many other forms of sudden and unsual deaths, including the other types I have mentioned. That includes hunting accidents, home accidents, killings in law enforcement, and I think that we are not holy in our county. We have lots of trouble with crime, but here are reports that are official. I can truthfully state that in my many years of experience as a trial judge handling civil, criminal, juvenile, and other cases, I can recall no case where the registration or licensing of even a concealable handgun has been a significant aid in either the prevention or the solution of crime, or when a mail-order gun could not have been as readily available to the criminal through local channels. Senator DODD. How do you square that with what you just said? I asked you if you did not think the statute had something to do with the low crime rate, and you said you certainly thought so. Now you tell us that in your entire experience you can recall no case where the registration or licensing of even a concealable handgun has been a significant aid in either the prevention or the solution of crime. Mr. COMSTOCK. I stressed the words "prevention or solution of the crime." Senator DODD. You do not think your statute, and what you say is a very good one as to the carrying of concealable weapons, has had anything to do with the prevention or the solution of crime? Mr. COMSTOCK. On the matter of the general control of crime through concealable firearms, of course it has a good effect. Here, I am talking about the prevention or solution of a specific crime whose evidence was produced in my court over my many years of experience. Senator DODD. Well, I want to talk about that later with you. We have here a long telegram from the deputy State attorney general of California on this subject, but go on with your statement, and I will go on to that after your testimony. The deputy attorney general of your State seems to think just the opposite of what you think. Mr. COMSTOCK. Then I go on, most of those who oppose this bill were ready to go along with Senator Dodd's original proposal after 4 years of thorough study and consideration. We could support such a bill as tending in some measure to eliminate evils growing out of the mail-order gun traffic. Even Oswald, however, could have procured his death weapon with ease locally, including the scope sight. Mr. Chairman, I worked with the members of your committee some years ago when we were studying your original proposal through some 4 years, and we were quite ready, so long as the official family of the NRA is concerned, and again I want to stress we cannot control the individual expressions of some 700,000 members of the members of some 12,000 clubs, including police clubs and the like, but so far as the official family of NRA is concerned we are then ready and are now ready to go along with the proposal such as you have worked out very carefully in your original bill which, understand, is very similar to what is now proposed by Senator Hickenlooper's bill. S. 1965, and I say this that we could support such a bill as tending in some measure to eliminate evils growing out of the mail order traffic and we cer tainly acknowledge and will work with you wholeheartedly and with deep sincerity to stop the flow into States which forbid these types of delivery to incompetent people, mental incompetents, narcotic users, ex-convicts, juveniles and the like, and the proposal in your original bill was reasonable. We agree with it. We could go along with it, and we think it would have some good effect, although none of us, I think, is so naive as to believe it would stop the potential criminal getting a firearm, especially where the law was disobeyed which was only a misdemeanor or had attached to it a misdemeanor and he is bent upon the commission of a felony or like again, Oswald, who was bent on two murders. After many years of experience on the bench and service on my State judicial council, it is my firm conviction that good and successful legislation is based in logic, and that poor legislation is frequently founded upon emotion or insufficient_consideration. I submit that S. 1592 is in the latter category, and I earnestly urge its defeat. If some legislation on this subject is deemed inevitable or necessary, let us all throw our support behind a more reasonable measure such as the bill introduced by Senator Hickenlooper of Iowa. I I do not say this committee is guilty of any insufficient considerationsay that in my statement. I appreciate the deep sincerity and the many, many hours that its chairman and this committee has spent upon it. But I say there is no substitute for legislative debate by the usual legislative process and the delegation of powers to any person in any bureau or any executive part of the Government to be enacted in having a force and effect of law by one man wherein rules and regulations is a dangerous process and is likely to impinge very seriously upon individual liberties. I think in these particular respects, section. or the bill S. 1592 is in the category of not affording to the delegates of these regulatory powers an opportunity for sufficient consideration and if so, legislation on this subject is deemed inevitable and neeessary then I could promise you the support of the official family of the NRA. I am sure that many other of the people who now oppose many provisions in this bill would throw their support to it and I say let us throw our support behind a more reasonable measure such as Senator Hickenlooper's bill, S. 1965 or one that is identical with your original proposal, Senator. I think there is a vast area for debate and disagreement with respect to the propriety of including the long gun. As to the concealed firearms, the one which is most usually used by the criminal, I think that your original bill, as finally worked out with the provision for a notarized statement, identification of the person ordering the handgun and the notification by registered mail to the local dealer so he could get a check on whether the person had a criminal record or was a known drunk or incompetent or a person otherwise under local law forbidden to obtain a permit to carry a handgun-I think it is good and we can give it our support. Senator DODD. Judge, I said I wanted to talk with you a little more about the statement that in your many years of experience as a trial judge handling civil and criminal and other cases you recall no cases where registration or licensing of a concealed weapon or a handgun has been a significant aid in the prevention or solution of crime. I have a telegram from the chief deputy attorney general of California. Mr. COMSTOCK. Is that Charlie O'Brien? Senator DODD. Yes. He says: Please be advised that the State does not have a general registration or licensing statute. However, the State department of justice does maintain a file of dealers' records of sales of handguns. This file has become one of the most valuable aids to law enforcement and the solution of gun crimes throughout the 58 counties of the State. Each day more than 250 urgent requests are received from police departments and sheriffs' offices for a search of these files, and information extracted from the files has been printed by the law enforcement officers for the solution of felonious crimes ranging from homicide to burglary. For instance, information from the files was instrumental earlier this year in solving one of the most brutal robbery homicides in the San Francisco Bay area, the shooting of Mr. Copeland, a busdriver. I should say for the record that this telegram is dated June 7, 1965. He goes on to say: The murder weapon was dropped on the bus. Although the original sale dated back to May 1960 and the police were able to trace the ownership and arrested the murder suspect when he fled to Texas. Three weeks ago, the California highway patrol effected the arrest of Ronald Ritchie for robbery and burglary by checking these files of reported gun sales. Last Friday, the Haywood, Calif., police department arrested a narcotic addict, on a suspected burglary on information found in these files. Your committee may also be interested to know the existence of such a file is known to have deterred the criminally minded from purchasing handguns in California. However, such persons have been able to make purchases in an unrecorded manner in neighboring States. On occasion, such individuals have returned immediately to California and committed gun crimes. While the State does not have a general registration or licensing provision, many local jurisdictions have, over the years, enacted some type of such a law at the request of local law enforcement officers which believe such statutes are helpful in reducing gun crimes. Among such jurisdictions is the city of Santa Rosa. This is your hometown Mr. COMSTOCK. Yes. Senator DODD. To go on, he says: which, since 1921 has had a permanent statute against the purchase of concealable weapons. You may also wish to refer to statements previously given by the Los Angeles Police Department representatives who have cited numerous crimes committed by mail-order weapons. (The full text of the telegram was marked "Exhibit No. 103" and is as follows:) EXHIBIT No. 103 Hon. THOMAS J. DODD, LOS ANGELES, CALIF., June 8, 1965. Chairman, Senate Subcommittee on Juvenile Delinquency, With regard to testimony on the effectiveness of gun regulations in California, please be advised that the State does not have general registration or licensing statute. However, the State department of justice does maintain a file of dealers' records of sales on handguns. This file has become one of the most valuable aids to law enforcement in the solution of gun crimes throughout the 58 counties of the State. Each day more than 250 urgent requests are received from police departments and sheriff's offices for a search of the files. Information extracted from the files has been credited by law enforcement with the solution of hundreds of felony crimes ranging from homicide to burglary. For instance, information from the file was instrumental, earlier this year, in solving one of the most brutal robbery-homicides in the history of the San Francisco Bay area, the shooting of Oakland busdriver Perseus Copeland. The murder weapon was dropped on the bus and although the original sale dated back to May 1960, police were able to trace the ownership through several hands and arrest the murder suspects, who had fled to Texas. George A. Thompson and his wife, Janette, are now waiting trial on charges of robbery and murder. Three weeks ago, the California Highway Patrol effected the arrest of Ronald D. Ritchie, a robbery and burglary suspect, by checking the State's file of recorded gun sales. Last Friday, the Hayward Police Department arrested a narcotic addict and suspected burglar, Allen Abrew, on information found in the files. The weapon found on Abrew had changed hands three times but tracing was possible through use of the files. The committee may also be interested to know the existence of such a file is known to have deterred the criminally minded from purchasing handguns in California. However, such persons have been able to make their purchases in an unrecorded manner in neighboring States. On occasion, such individuals have returned immediately to California and committed gun crimes. While the State does not have general registration or licensing provision. many local jurisdictions have over the years enacted some type of permit law at the request of local law enforcement which believes such statutes are helpful in reducing gun crimes. Among such jurisdictions is the city of Santa Rosa, which since 1921 has had a permit statute for the purchase of concealable weapons. You may also wish to refer to statements previously given the committee by Los Angeles Police Department representatives, each of whom cited numerous crimes committed with mail-order weapons. CHARLES A. O'BRIEN, Office of the Attorney General, Department of Justice. Senator DODD. Now, apparently, Mr. O'Brien thinks that some type of control, registration, or licensing or maintaining of records of sales has been tremendously helpful in the solution of these crimes. Mr. COMSTOCK. Well, sir, if I may comment on that, we do have records of original sales by dealers under the waiting-period statute which we have in California, which, we think, is a good one, and I may say that I appeared before Assemblyman Gordon Wood's fine committee that made a long study of our firearms at the present State legislature and came up with a series of bills that is entirely in accord with the views of the organizations for which I spoke at the hearings and the question was asked of a person from the State department of INI, to which Charlie O'Brien refers in that telegram, as to how many cases of application to purchase had resulted in stopping the sale to an unauthorized person during the waiting period. He was unable to answer it. He gave an estimate which, upon figures later obtained, was clear out in left field and very erroneous. He did not know what the figures were, but when we produced the figures they were very small, sir. I do not recall them exactly. They were very, very small and so far as Mr. O'Brien's statement is concerned, I have no doubt that there have been cases throughout the State of California not tried in my court, where perhaps someone has thrown away a gun at the scene of a crime where a gun had been seen in someone's possession and has subsequently been seized by the police where there has been some use made of the registration of the literally hundreds of thousands of registered sales of concealable handguns we have in our State bureau of INI. |