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the Pittman-Robertson Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act, this money is credited to a special fund in the Treasury and subsequently allocated under a prescribed matching grants formula to all of the States for approved wildlife restoration projects.

There were in the United States in 1963, the latest year of record, 14,122,659 paid hunting license holders. The actual number of hunters is believed to be at least 20 percent greater, because landowners, tenants, and certain others are not required to obtain licenses in some States.

The gross cost to hunters of all licenses, tags, and permits was more than $72 million that year. This brings to $1,123,054,481 the amount that hunters have contributed to essential State wildlife restoration. work since recordkeeping began in 1923. In addition, the excise taxes which they have paid willingly on sporting arms and ammunition and whose continuance they have supported from time to time have made still another $255.7 million available for wildlife restoration programs in the past quarter century.

Many sportsmen also buy the $3 migratory bird hunting stamp, the so-called Duck Stamp, issued by the Federal Government, the proceeds of which are used to purchase and develop wetlands necessary for the preservation of ducks, geese, and other migratory birds. This currently amounts to $5 million to $6 million a year, and under the terms of a recent enactment, duck hunters have pledged to repay from future duck stamp sales the $105 million authorized for a 7-year program of speeding wetlands purchases.

I mention these factors, Mr. Chairman, to point out that the huntershooter has a prominent role in protecting America's wildlife. Without his contributions there would be no way to buy and develop land for wildlife, to provide law enforcement, and to underwrite research to gain knowledge with which to blunt the effect of urban and industrial expansion that destroys wildlife irrevocably by eliminating its habitat. We must make sure that the rules and regulations that are adopted in an effort to curb crime do not so inconvenience and discourage sportsmen that wildlife restoration programs fail to get necessary financing. That assurance is lacking in S. 1592.

In conclusion, I want to say again that sportsmen are not opposed to reasonable steps to reduce armed crime wherever possible. But they know that this cannot be accomplished as easily as some persons apparently believe. Sportsmen have seen the discouraging results of too many local experiments, and they have watched the courts fail to hand out the full sentences that the laws already provide. They know, too, that recent compilations show that 8 out of 10 serious crimes that take place in the United States are committed by repeaters, who already have had one or more brushes with the law. And they keep reading about the penologists who advocate early release, parole, and short sentences for criminals as a means of circumventing new prison construction and present overcrowding conditions. They contrast that point of view with findings of the FBI wherein the Director of that organization has expressed the opinion that society already is harmed by the lenient treatment and the early release of criminals.

Mr. Chairman, sportsmen are not opposed to the hoped for objectives of S. 1592. But they disagree with the methods it would employ. The certain inconvenience of S. 1592 far outweighs its scant promise of effectiveness, in our opinion. Sportsmen see in S. 1592 not so much

a direct program for reducing armed crime as they see a threat and a continued harassment to their recreational use of firearms. They see an obstacle to their freedom of choice and movement, without the hint of compensating social benefit.

Senator DODD. Well, Mr. Gutermuth, your testimony is of great interest to the committee. I am glad you testified.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman

Senator DODD. We need all the advice we can get. I have never said this bill was perfect in any respect. I think you have made a good point about the antique guns. I think you have also got something when you talk about the small-caliber ammunition in the general store. I think, myself, perhaps we can improve this bill by some changes in those areas.

I am a little concerned about your statement that 8 out of 10 serious crimes that take place in the United States are committed by repeaters. I think the statistics show that juveniles commit 50 percent of all serious crimes in this country, and of that 50 percent, 70 percent are first offenders.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Well, I don't know. I have attended these hearings regularly. I have listened to all of these many statements, statistics that were given here. It occurs to me that-I listened to these statements this morning from Commander Miller and from the distinguished Chief Layton. I have no argument with these things.

The point I ask myself all the time, as the hearing goes along, though, is, are the provisions of S. 1592 going to get at these things! I am afraid not. I am afraid-and I am sorry to say, sir, as much as I want to clean up the crime in this country, and stop the thugsI do not think that this is going to do it. If we cannot begin to crack down on the people who are causing crime in this country, then we are not going to control crime in this country, in my opinion.

Senator DODD. Well, I am not in much disagreement with you. I think we have a lot of things to do. I don't suggest that the passage of this bill will wipe out crime. I think there are many other things we have to do as well.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Mr. Chairman, I made some notes on a separate statement which I am not going to bore you by reading if it can be entered in the record. It is only a page and a quarter.

I mentioned in my statement having attended a hearing before the Treasury Department. I have some extra copies and I will hand them out to the committee and anybody else that wants them. But they are my opinions my reactions of a hearing that I attended before the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax Division of the Treasury Department back in 1957. It mentions the kind of rules and regulations they were proposing at that time. I don't think they would have done any good, except to impose a lot of restrictions on law-abiding merchants and sportsmen across this country. And I am deeply disturbed about the proposals in S. 1592 that would give blanket authority, so to speak, to the Treasury Department.

I implore this committee, if you are going to impose rules and regulations on the sportsmen of this country, let this committee write the rules and regulations so that the people can see them and will not be subjected to all this rulemaking by the executive branch of the Government.

I have another statement entitled "Questions on S. 1592," in which I spell out some of the provisions we are concerned about, which I would like in the record. Maybe this will be of some help and guidance to the committee.

But I do want to say in conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that I, for one, stand ready to cooperate in every way, shape, and form, and the same way with my staff, in helping you people do the things that should be done in your noble effort to control crime in this country.

Senator DODD. Well, I am well aware of that. I know that you are a very earnest and sincere man.

I have some questions I didn't want to go into now. Would it be a grave inconvenience if you came back after the noon recess?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. No; not at all.

Senator DODD. I don't want to inconvenience you.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. No; I will be glad to return.

Senator DODD. It might help us to understand better what your points are.

Would 1:30 be acceptable?
Mr. GUTERMUTH. Yes, sir.
Senator DODD. All right.
We will recess until 1:30.

(Whereupon, at 12:20 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 p.m., the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

STATEMENT OF C. R. GUTERMUTH-Resumed

Senator DODD. Mr. Gutermuth, I am grateful that you have returned.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Thank you.

Senator DODD. I have a few questions which I thought might help make more clear on the record the facts as you have presented them. I noticed, for example, in your statement you said that

sportsmen object to treating rifles and shotguns in the same manner as handguns. They know that the latter are susceptible of the greatest misuse by criminals, addicts, unstable persons, and others.

Well, I would like to point out to you, and I think you will agree, rifles and shotguns are not treated in the same manner as are handguns. They are treated quite differently.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Yes. My thought was not necessarily in the definition of the word "treated"-I didn't mean that. What I meant was actually including long guns in the same kind of regulatory procedure in the procurement of these weapons.

Senator DODD. Yes; I am sure that is what you did mean.

What I want to know, if you can tell me--is it your view that rifles and shotguns should not be included in S. 1592?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Well, yes, this proposed regulation deals with mail-order shipment of sales. You have permitted persons under this proposed law, if I read it correctly, to procure long guns, people over the prescribed age, in over-the-counter sales anyway.

Senator DODD. Yes.

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Mr. GUTERMUTH. I still contend that provision should be made so that people can, in whatever way is deemed necessary, to procure various kinds of long guns through the mail, if this is the most convenient and sensible way to procure the gun that they are trying to get. Senator DODD. Well-by the way, this is not to cross-examine you. I am trying to find out.

I said this morning-and I am not hostile to guns. I have said that many times. What bothers me is that 30 percent of the gun deaths in this country are committed by persons armed with rifles and shotguns. This is a considerable number. In thinking this out, it seems to me that I could not write or draft a sensible bill curbing this traffic in dangerous weapons unless they were included. I think when 30 percent of the gun deaths are by rifles and shotguns, that is a substantial figure. I did not do this lightly.

I would like to know what your view is. What do we do when confronted with that fact?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. I think that the matter of 30 percent is what I call-maybe this is not a good definition-but what I call convenience of the weapon at hand. I was looking over, during the lunch period. this statement that Chief Layton submitted, and it lists all of these various figures.

Now, I am not going to get in-I do not profess to be an expert, Senator Dodd, on these matters of statistics, the crime rate and all of this and that. But these figures confuse me.

In the first place, they are quite obviously based on the population in an area. When you look at this aggravated assault, it shows 1,081 of these cases that they reported here were with a knife. Here is 129 with a bottle.

What does this mean?

It means one thing to me. If somebody is going to commit a crime, he is going to commit that crime in whatever happens to be the most convenient and easy way for him to commit it. If it is a bottle handy, a shotgun or a rifle handy, this is what he uses.

Senator DODD. Well, don't you discern any difference between a gun and a knife?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Well, I don't know. My wife also is vitally interested and she contends that she certainly would rather be if she is going to be attacked or assaulted, she would rather have it be done with a gun than with a knife, and be all cut up. I don't know the answer to things like that.

Senator DODD. I think you do know. I will suggest it to you.

All of these other instruments that you have mentioned have a dif ferent use. A knife you cut bread with, or peel an orange or an apple. but you cannot use a pistol to do that, or a shotgun or a rifle. Mr. GUTERMUTH. Well, that is right. But

Senator DODD. All a gun does is kill somebody, or hit a target.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. It is the intended use. People have guns and rifles and shotguns for a purpose. And this country is full of them. What we are talking about now is trying to control the future procurement of guns by different people. This still does not get at the fact that the country is full of guns. But the records themselves-like the fellow says, I didn't prepare these records, all I am doing is looking at them. But it is quite obvious to me that when people get ready to commit a crime, a high percentage, as you see here, use either a butcher

knife or something else. And if it hadn't been a knife, they would have used a bottle, or a club, or some other thing, an icepick, and so on. So I don't know.

Senator DODD. Well, I only wanted to ask, because this argument has been made time and again. You quoted the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation this morning. He says that a gun is seven times more deadly than all other instruments used in assaults, murder, and aggravated crimes.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Well, I think that is right. And that perhaps is the reason why so many people use this method whenever they feel that they are going to do something.

But what we are trying to do, as I see it, is control the criminal element in this country, and in so doing I think certainly and J. Edgar Hoover has said this very clearly-the place to start is to cut out this leniency.

Senator DODD. I don't have any argument with you about that. I think there is something to be said for this view.

But I don't see how this is a valid argument against this effort to get some kind of control over this dreadful traffic in firearms which, according to the law-enforcement people, is a great problem all across this Nation. There are many other things we have to do. But this is one thing it seems to me that we can do that will help. It won't stop everything, but it seems to me it will help somewhat. Mr. GUTERMUTH. I agree with that.

Now, there are certain things that disturb me, and disturb me no end. When I say me, I mean literally millions of people across this country, because in the last few days-again I have talked with a great many people about this publicity. It disturbs me, for example, Senator, to see this display back here.

Now, I was here the other day at the hearings, listening to this Mr.— what is it-Margrave, or whatever his name is, and he indicated that they have adequate rules or laws that could control these weapons. Why is all this stuff displayed up here before we people and the TV cameras? What does this have to do with the problem? Why haven't we stopped the sales of this stuff long ago?

Senator DODD. Well, I agree. But we haven't. And it is here— Mr. GUTERMUTH. OK. Like the guy says, let's get at that. Senator DODD. I am trying to.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Now, then, on your bill-and I told you this morning-we will cooperate and will work with you. In fact, for 2 years, a lot of the people with whom we are closely associated have worked, trying to assist your committee and you to perfect the kind of thing that you want.

Senator DODD. What disturbs you about these exhibits?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. What disturbs me-about these exhibits-is that I don't think they are pertinent.

Senator DODD. Let me point something out to you. You see the three rifles on the first board. They were guns used to commit murders in the District of Columbia.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. That is right. But the sale of most of that other crap, as I call it, could have been stopped long ago. There isn't any reason to permit this sort of stuff to be spread across this country.

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