Senator DODD. Yes; of course, you are absolutely right. No one has ever claimed passage of this bill would eradicate all crime committed with guns, but it will help. That has always been our intention.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, sir; I agree with that.

Senator DODD. I was particularly interested in what you have to say about the procedures which you have worked out with the REA. I think you should be commended for this. I think you will remember that in our 1963 hearings we went into this subject, in cooperation with you and your department.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. In those hearings 2 years ago, we established in cooperation with your Department that 25 percent of the mail-order consignees in the District of Columbia had criminal records. And the procedures which you have set up have obviously helped to curb this traffic.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, Mr. Chairman. You have made an accurate statement. This was set up following the meetings with your committee and staff. We feel, as I have indicated here, that this has provided good control over this type of transportation of firearms into the District.

Senator DODD. Yes; it is a good thing. But, of course, it is local. It doesn't prevail across the country.

Mr. LAYTON. That is correct.

Senator DODD. I recall in your testimony before the Senate District Committee to which I referred earlier, you indicated there are some 65,000 registered concealable weapons in the District of Columbia. Have you any idea how many nonregistered concealable weapons there are in the District?

Mr. LAYTON. No, sir; I don't have any information that could be considered accurate at all along that line. I know that we have had an increasing number of voluntary registrations. Last year, for instance, there were some approximately 1,200 registrations made by individuals who came to police headquarters voluntarily and registered the firearms that they own.

Senator DODD. If there are 65,000 registered, I wonder how many are not known?

Mr. LAYTON. This is difficult to determine, of course.

Senator DODD. Do you have any figures which would indicate how many persons with criminal records as against those without prior criminal records have been involved in armed robbery with guns?

Mr. LAYTON. I don't have those kind of statistics available, Mr. Chairman.

From my experience, I would think that a large percentage of those people who are involved in offenses such as holdup with a gun had had previous records. This won't hold true completely. There are occasions, of course, where we arrest persons the first time. But I would think the large percentage would be those who had a previous record.

Senator DODD. I am sure that is true.

The point of my question was this: Critics of this bill have asserted that the criminal will always be able to get a gun in one way or another. and, therefore, this legislation won't have much effect on them. I

think it is clear there is a substantial percentage of people without prior criminal records who commit crimes with guns.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, sir; this would be true.

Senator DODD. It must be true.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, sir.

Senator DODD. I wanted to make that point for the record-because it is a criticism we hear over and over again. As a matter of fact, some of the opponents have put out literature, advertisements in the press, to this effect. But I am confident that police records across the country will show that there is a substantial portion of people with no prior criminal records who commit crimes with guns.

Mr. LAYTON. Yes; our experience here in the District would show some in both categories, of course.

Senator DODD. This would be particularly true in homicides.
Mr. LAYTON. I think that is probably true, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. Well, finally, I want to make clear on the recorddo you feel that S. 1592, if it were passed would help effectively to control or curb the flow of firearms?

Mr. LAYTON. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I am certain that it would close off some avenues that are now presently available to those who want guns and should not have them.

Senator DODD. Well, as I said to Commander Miller of the Chicago Police Department, I must say to you, Chief Layton, we have had excellent cooperation from you and from your Department. It has been outstanding, as a matter of fact. The studies that we have been able to get in cooperation with you and your Department have, I think, made abundantly clear the necessity for some remedial legislation right away.

I want to thank you.

Mr. LAYTON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator DODD. Thank you, Chief.

(A photograph of weapons used in crimes in the District of Columbia purchased in nearby counties was marked "Exhibit No. 78," and will be found on p. 292.)

Mr. C. R. Gutermuth?

(Photographs of mail-order type guns confiscated in the District of Columbia were marked "Exhibits Nos. 79 and 80" and will be found on pp. 292-293.)

We are glad to have you. You are the vice president of the Wildlife Management Institute, and you have served as vice president since 1946, I believe. I know you are also a trustee and secretary of the North American Wildlife Foundation, and you have been active in wildlife activities. You are also a director of the National Rifle Association, I believe.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. That is right.

Senator DODD. And many other similar organizations.

STATEMENT OF C. R. GUTERMUTH, VICE PRESIDENT, WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT INSTITUTE; ACCOMPANIED BY DANIEL A. POOLE, SECRETARY

Mr. GUTERMUTH. I have with me, Mr. Chairman, Danial A Poole, who is the secretary of the Wildlife Management Institute, which is one of the older national conservation organizations in this country.

49-588-65-20

EXHIBIT No. 79 Photograph: Sample-mail order type guns confiscated in 1962-2nd Precinct,

District of Columbia.

Photograph: Sample-mail order type guns confiscated in 1962, District of Columbia.

Senator DODD. We are glad to have him here.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. The Institutes program, Mr. Chairman, has been devoted to the restoration and improved management of natural resources in the public interest, for more than 50 years.

Before proceeding, I wish to advise that the Sport Fishing Institute, another national organization, upon the request of Richard H. Stroud, the executive vice president, has associated itself with the following

statement.

Early last year, in our statement on the firearms proposal before the Senate Committee on Commerce, the institute complimented Senators Warren G. Magnuson and Howard W. Cannon on their introductory comments at the committee's hearing. Their observations and admonitions, which appear in the printed record of the hearing, point out the pitfalls of superficial legislation and stand as appropriate guidelines for any firearms proposals that are considered today.

Senators Magnuson and Cannon warned that the paramount rights and responsibilities of the millions of law-abiding persons must be considered. They acknowledged that firearms can be misused by the criminally inclined, by incompetents and malcontents, and uninstructed juveniles. They expressed the belief that some solutions are needed, and they cautioned against the inequity of penalizing and burdening the many for the misdeeds and indifference of the few.

At last year's hearing, the institute joined with sportsmen, conservationists, natural resources administrators, and thousands of others throughout the country in requesting an objective review of the fire

arms situation. An atmosphere of calm deliberation was requested. wherein the misuse of firearms would be considered in perspective to the commission of crime of all kinds. The Committee on Commerce, under the thoughtful chairmanship of Senator Magnuson, made that kind of a forum possible, and an informative and useful hearing record resulted.

Hunters, and skeet, trap, and target shooters, as well as those who possess firearms for defense of home, busines, and property are ap palled by the irreponsible acts of criminals, addicts, and other unde sirables. Shooters and hunters are as eager as any other citizen to rid society of criminal acts of all kinds. They are aware that crime cannot be abolished, but that it can be reduced. They know, too, that weapons do not create crime, but rather, that crime creates weapons. "Crime is as old as history," President Johnson noted in his congressional message of March 8. "It is hardly new to America. But in our increasingly mobile, urban society, crime problems are not only greater, they are immensely more complex."

The dimensions of crime and of criminality are poorly understood. The President, in his message, announced the appointment of a Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice to "deepen our understanding of the causes of crime and how our society should respond to the challenge of the present levels of crime." He listed six examples of the "important and troublesome questions on which I believe the Commission can furnish guidance **" Among them was example 3-"Through what kinds of programs can the Federal Government be most effective in assisting State and local enforcement?" without, and again I use the words of the President, "infringing on the primary responsibility of States and localities."

No one has enough specific knowledge of crime and its attendant factors to predict the expected result of any corrective measure that may be proposed. Nor is there agreement among authorities on the kinds of remedial action that are needed.

Senator DODD. At this point-did you hear Commander Miller, of the Chicago police?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Yes; I did.

Senator DODD. And Chief Layton?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. That is right. I also am very cognizant, Mr. Chairman-while I respect and admire Chief Layton-I also am very cognizant of the fact that former Chief Murray indicated that this was not the proper approach.

Senator DODD. Where?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. In statements that I have read, he indicated that this type of control is not the kind that will control the use of guns in the hands of criminals.

Senator DODD. Wasn't he talking about the proposed legislation

bill?

Mr. GUTERMUTH. Perhaps so.

Senator DODD. I don't think there is any doubt so. I know his testimony. That is what he was talking about. I think it is incumbent upon you to be accurate when you testify here.

Mr. GUTERMUTH. We all have the same desire as you, Mr. Chairman, as I have indicated, and as I will bring out later in this statement. Senator DODD. I appreciate that. But I think in testifying here, it