Mr. Chairman, you will recall that in testifying before the Senate Committee on Commerce December 18, 1963, on S. 1975, which you introduced in the 88th Congress, I expressed the general support of the federation for this proposal but suggested it be modified to prevent police authorities being granted the right to halt the sale of a firearm to any law-abiding, adult citizen. We further expressed our opposition to gun registration. We still believe such restrictions are unnecessary and will have little if any effect on the crime rate in this country. On the other hand, we believe some additional restraint on the sale, particularly the mail-order sale, of handguns or concealable weapons is justified and necessary. We believe the bill (S. 1965) recently introduced by Senator Bourke B. Hickenlooper, of Iowa, provides reasonable and effective regulation to meet these objectives and we trust it will receive serious consideration.

We are fully convinced, however, that no law, no matter how thoughtfully conceived and carefully worded, will, by itself, solve the crime problem in the United States.

As everyone knows, there are at least three kinds of misrepresentations in this world-big lies, little lies, and statistics. The data supplied by the FBI on crime illustrates that statistics are subject to a wide variety of analyses with varying conclusions and opinions. These statistics have been analyzed by some to show that the sale, ownership, and use of guns in America bear a direct relationship to the crime rate. We believe, however, the crime problem is not so much one of guns but of people. With more than 20,000 firearms laws already on the books in this country, we believe the first step in solving our crime problem is complete enforcement of existing laws, coupled with swift, impartial, and severe punishment for those convicted of breaking those laws.

The effect of such an approach has been proved in New York City which has some of the Nation's most severe restrictions on the sale, ownership, and possession of firearms. In this, our largest city, officials conducted an experiment, called "Operation 25," in the tough 25th precinct of Manhattan. They raised the strength of the police force from 244 men to 613 men for a 4-month period in 1954 with all the additional policemen assigned to foot patrol. By the end of the test period, felonies were down 55 percent; robberies down 70 percent; burglaries down 65 percent; street muggings down 90 percent.

It is already illegal to sell firearms and ship them in interstate commerce to persons under indictment or convicted of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term of 1 year or more. It is already illegal to sell or ship any firearm to a person not entitled to own it under State or local laws. But as we all recognize, every day in America guns are being sold and shipped to juveniles and adults who are not legally entitled to purchase or possess them. The real problem is not so much one of laws, but of law enforcement.

We believe the time is long overdue for expanding and improving, through training, equipment, and increased compensation, our law enforcement agencies at every level of government. We believe the time is long overdue for eliminating the social causes of crime. And we believe it is high time that we stop treating confirmed criminals and juvenile delinquents as innocent victims of circumstances, rather than what they really are.

In short, we believe the answer to our crime problem will be found with the small, but well-publicized, minority of our citizens who misuse firearms. Attack the criminal, not the gun. Require proper identification of the individual attempting to purchase a gun and provide stiff penalties for falsifying information in connection therewith. Prohibit the sale of firearms to felons, drug addicts, habitual drunkards, mental incompetents, juveniles, and any person not entitled to purchase or possess a firearm by State or local law. Increase our police forces so that violators can be apprehended before they commit crimes of violence. Pass laws which will aid the law enforcement officer and prosecuting attorney in removing from society those criminals who will not be bound by law and order. And, then, support enforcement efforts in our courts so that swift and adequate punishment can be meted out to those individuals in our society who deliberately fail in their obligations and responsibilities as American citizens. But in so doing, do not take away the greatest right enjoyed by responsible Americans-the right of self-protection.

Senator BURDICK. Thank you, Mr. Kimball, for a very fine statement. I believe the staff has a few questions they want to ask you.

Mr. PERIAN. Mr. Kimball, you quoted initially from the 1963 Uniform Crime Reports of J. Edgar Hoover, and you quoted from the introduction that points out some of the conditions that influences the amount and type of crime that occurs from place to place.

Granted these are environmental conditions that dictate the degree and type of crime that will exist in a community-which is one reason. by the way, that Milwaukee has an extremely low crime rate and a history of a lack of criminality-perhaps it is due in part to these environmental factors.

I wondered if you are representing to the committee that because there is no mention of the availability of firearms in this particular list in the introduction, that either the Bureau or J. Edgar Hoover feels that firearms are not important in the crime picture.

Have you bothered to read over to page 7 of this same document ? Might I read to you several paragraphs which have been repeated by J. Edgar Hoover recently

Mr. KIMBALL. Go right ahead. I might have some comments on the analysis myself.

Mr. PERIAN. He has printed separate brochures strictly on the problem of the impact of the availability of firearms on the crime problem. I would like to quote from his report:

A firearm was used in 56 percent of the willful killings, a knife or cutting instrument 23 percent, personal weapons 9 percent, blunt objects 6 percent, and the remainder of the weapons or type of weapon unknown. The use of a firearm as a weapon was up 4 percent over 1962. The use of weapons in murder varies by geographic region, city, suburb, and rural areas. In 1963 firearms accounted for 53 percent of the murder in American cities, 62 percent in the suburban area, and 68 percent of the rural area. By region, a firearm was used in 37 percent of the killings in the northwest, 53 percent in the Western States. 56 percent in the North Central States, and 64 percent of the murders in the Southern States. The easy accessibility of firearms and the lethal nature of the gun are clearly apparent in these murder figures. When assaults by type of weapon are examined, a gun proves to be seven times more deadly than all other weapons combined. Over 60 percent of the willful killing within the family unit, 31 percent of all murders, were committed with firearms.

The following quote would indicate that the availability of firearms to criminals is not the only factor we are concerned with here.

In this category, the lowest incidence of a firearm used as a murder weapon involves parents killing children. A gun was used in 29 percent of the fatalities. However, examining these deaths more closely, we find more vietims under 5 years of age, a gun was used in 13 percent of the killings; vic tims over 5 years of age a gun was used in 62 percent of the incidents. It is reasonable to assume that just as many attacks were made on older children with other weapons, but these percentages suggest the lethal nature of a gun. Likewise, altercations outside of the family, where victims and assailant were for the most part acquainted a gun was used in 57 percent of the killings. Within this group, such as lovers' quarrels, a gun was used in 66 percent of the murders, drinking siutations 54 percent, altercations over money and property 67 percent, and revenge 76 percent. Felony murder was 44 percent by gur This proportion was influenced downward by the number of sex killings which concluded with the use of a gun in only 16 percent of the incidents. wise the vast majority of felony murder was by gun.

Other

I would further like to quote Mr. Hoover before the Appropriations Committee to the effect that the gun is certainly a significant factor in the commission of murders, and the gun is seven times more deadly than all other weapons combined; that certainly the public has a

right to expect that the distributor of deadly weapons meet certain regulations and qualifications.

I merely wanted to set the record straight. You read the introduction to the report, which would indicate the FBI and J. Edgar Hoover were not particularly concerned about guns.

Mr. KIMBALL. May I comment now?

It may interest you to know I have undelined in red on page 7 this comment, that the easy accessibility of firearms and the lethal nature of a gun are clearly apparent in these murder figures.

This easy accessibility brings up another interesting question.

Is the FBI Director arriving at some of the conclusions that perhaps Senator Kennedy did, that the only way we can solve our murder problems in the United States is to make guns not accessible, and the only way that we can do this is to remove them from the people who have them, because no one is going to be able to determine when an individual flies into a rage and grabs the nearest thing to him to commit murder?

Mr. PERIAN. Except when he grabs a gun, the chances are seven to one it will end in murder.

Mr. KIMBALL. How many of these would be prevented if a gun was not available? Wouldn't he grab a butcher knife or a hammer or a hatchet, or something else?

Mr. PERIAN. We are not advocating the elimination of guns.

Mr. KIMBALL. Director Hoover is entitled to his opinion, and you are entitled to yours, and I am entitled to mine.

Mr. PERIAN. You presented the position of the FBI as if there were no information within this particular pamphlet to indicate that the gun was important in committing murder. You referred to environmental conditions.

Now, if you take this list of environmental conditions, and apply them to the city of New York as compared to the city of Dallas, which we have done, New York should by far have a much higher gun homicide rate. They have more people, they are packed more closely together, they have a variety of cultural groups. They have a tremendous problem with poverty. In terms of these factors, which are outlined in the FBI report, the city of New York should have a rate triple that of Dallas. And yet Dallas has a rate three times that of New York City.

Mr. KIMBALL. Mr. Perian, you can prove anything by statistics. Mr. PERIAN. That is true.

Mr. KIMBALL. This very

Mr. PERIAN. There is nothing like a few facts to confuse an argu

ment.

Mr. KIMBALL. All right. Then let me confuse you with a few more of the facts.

Milwaukee, for example, still has the lowest murder rate.

Mr. PERIAN. If you apply the very list you read to us to the city of Milwaukee, you will find out why Milwaukee has a low crime rate. It has historically and traditionally had a low crime rate.

Mr. KIMBALL. That is the point I am making. The crime rate does not involve the possession of guns. It involves all of these other environmental factors, and many things that affect our crime rate.

Mr. PERIAN. When people are predisposed to commit crimes they buy guns and use them. We have proved that with our study of two hardware stores in the adjacent county of Prince Georges. Criminals from this city were going there and buying guns and coming back to Washington and committing crimes, simply because they didn't want to identify themselves to the District police.

All we are trying to do is prevent this from occurring.
Do you think this is a negative approach to the problem?

Mr. KIMBALL. No; I don't think attempting to prevent it is negative. This accessibility of firearms is the matter under discussion. The point I am making is that in Milwaukee there are less restrictions on firearms, and, therefore, they are more accessible than they are in New York, and yet their crime rate is lower. And we are talking about the abolition of crime in this country. At least that is the point I thought this committee had under consideration.

Mr. PERIAN. That is exactly what we are considering. That is why we considered Dallas and Phoenix, with easy accessibility of firearmsand they have extremely high homicide rates, compared to the major cities of this country. And when you compare their homicide rates by gun, it is double that of our major cities.

Now, according to the criteria outlined in the FBI report, Dallas and Phoenix should have much lower crime rates, because the environmental conditions do not suggest that they should have these high crime

rates.

That is the only point I am trying to make.

This is an interesting item you point out in your statement, about operation 25, in New York City.

That is, where they raised the strength of the police force from 244 men to 613, they decreased felonies by 55 percent. I don't think anyone would deny that if you take a small area, a small precinct, and make it in effect an armed camp, you will reduce crime. But look at this realistically. Our police chief here in this city just last week said that at any one time we may have as few as 350 patrolmen in the streets of Washington, a city which contains 1 million people.

men.

Now, you point out yourself where are we going to get these policeAnd the city of Washington has one of the highest aggravated assault rates of any city in the world. It has one of the highest aggravated assault rates in the Nation, and by gun.

Mr. KIMBALL. The point I was trying to make is that we better attempt to do something in that line, rather than to consider only making guns inaccessible.

Mr. PERIAN. This committee has moved in 25 different directions. We have advocated additional police for the District of Columbia.

Senator Dodd has many times gone to the floor of the Senate and pleaded for more police protection, pleaded for more money for more policemen. We are very much aware of the various factors that contribute to crime, and we have been working in these directions.

This is simply one aspect of it.

Mr. KIMBALL. Mr. Chairman, might I comment?

Senator BURDICK. You may comment.

Mr. KIMBALL. I have stated repeatedly that our organization-and I think we have our finger on the pulse of how the sportsmen of this

country feel-recognize that we have a problem in concealable weapons. And I commend the committee and the work the staff has done in this field. And I have said so to Mr. Perian and Senator Dodd many times.

I think that we need some legislation in this field. I want to be positive and I hope constructive in this connotation.

But my objection to S. 1592 revolves on two primary issues. One is the inclusion of the sporting arm, the long gun, the rifle, and the shotgun, in the inclusion of these provisions. I do not think the committee has made a case for this. And I think that the review of the testimony will show this.

The only justifications are those comments contained by Senator Dodd in his opening statement. And that in our view, this should be eliminated from any consideration, because it is just not justified.

Secondly, I don't believe that the executive branch of the Government should be vested with the authority in seven different places in this law to further regulate the people of the United States in connection with their ownership and possession of firearms. I think this is a matter which logically, traditionally, should be reserved by the Congress, and that if it takes additional hearings to determine what regulations should be there, that it should be done the Congress should take that time, and to hold the necessary hearings, and to hear from everyone in the United States just how they feel about the regulations and what should be prescribed in this vein.

And then I think you would begin to feel the pulse of really how the people in the country feel about gun legislation.

Senator BURDICK. Thank you again, Mr. Kimball.

Dr. Harmon Leonard, president of the American Society of Arms Collectors.

STATEMENT OF DR. HARMON LEONARD, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN SOCIETY OF ARMS COLLECTORS

Dr. LEONARD. I am a veterinarian, sir, and current president of the American Society of Arms Collectors. And I am speaking on their behalf.

Gentlemen, I am speaking in behalf of the American Society of Arms Collectors, who are representative of the 800,000 arms collectors in the United States.

We join with you in expressing our deep concern over the problems with which you have been working in your investigation into the causes of juvenile delinquency, and we are especially concerned when your investigation reveals the association of hand guns and crimes of violence. In this regard, I know of no member of the society who would not support legislation which he feels would be an effective deterrent to crime.

The primary interest of the arms collector in the American Society lies in antique and historical arms. These include 16th century match locks, Revolutionary War flint locks, Civil War musket, and the arms that settled and established law in our western lands. In the 20 years I have been collecting arms, I do not know nor have I heard of one of these collector arms being used in a crime. Nor would the remote possible incidence in which one might have been involved be any more