H. OF R.]

The Tariff.

[MAY 31, 1832.

sole reason is stated in the address before referred to. It fact stands, I will examine presently. I see, in the esti is the interest of the whole combination to acknowledge mates I have alluded to, sugar land is set down at fifty and to feel the cause of each their own, and their power dollars the acre. In 1818, the tobacco lands of my own and influence is an overmatch for the unprotected and country were three or four times their present price; but preyed-on class. Yes, sir, the influence exerted by the no friendly act of Congress has been passed to check or wealthy, as discovered in the progress of the protecting break the fall. We desired none. We saw and felt the system, is, in the highest degree, appalling. How is it, sir, revulsion that shook the whole civilized world, but asked that sugar comes to be the great interest of the State of Leu- nothing but this, that no stepmother should lay on us part isiana? A comparative few of her citizens get a share of of the burdens which others had to bear, when our share the bounty; yet her whole delegation votes to burden her was, to the full, as great as theirs. Had we been left to population, not with the duty on sugar only, but with this combat as we could with our misfortunes, the fall of twowhole scheme of complex exaction. A few hundred men thirds might have stopped at the half. The sugar planter in the receipt and disbursement of four or five millions an- was then protected by a duty of about twenty-five per nually, hold a commanding influence that nothing there, cent.; but that being specific, the rise in the price of moand I fear nothing any where, but more money, can coun- ney, and fall in the price of every thing else, with no tervail. The sugar planter votes for the outrageous cata- change in the law, has made it a duty of seventy per logue of protecting duties, for the same reason that the cent.; and the price of sugar lands stands at the price of manufacturer of woollen, of cotton, of iron, and all the fifty dollars. If the duty was now doubled, the land would rest, votes for the sugar duty. With the motto "United rise in price until the estimated profits would give the we stand, divided we fall," they move in solid column to same rate with that which has been exhibited. I know the defence of any point assailed; whether that point is very well that a repeal or reduction of the duty would defensible in policy or justice, is not the question. Their down with the price of the land; purchasers at preinterest is served by the system; each particular is part of sent and past prices would have to bide the storm which, that system; and that interest makes justice, when men from 1819 on to this time, has whelmed over so many who act in masses, is a truth proved by the whole conduct of bought high and had to sell low: but, as to the progress men in all ages and countries. It seems a heartless, hope- of cultivating sugar, it would have no other effect than less business to prove the grinding injustice of this op- would the repeal of the English corn laws on the produc pression, and, at the same time, prove that it is not to be tion of breadstuffs in England. In both cases, the culti altered; but this is not the court in the last resort. vation of unfit lands would be abandoned; but, if reducI took some notes of the spech of the gentleman from tion of duties on other things took place at the same time, Massachusetts, [Mr. APPLETON.] The gentleman from the change in the price of the land would not be in proPennsylvania [Mr. CRAWFORD] had concluded before I had portion to the reduction of the duty; and sugar lands, I any suspicion that I should come forward so early in the doubt not, would still be higher than any other in that debate; but my own general views contain the best an- country. The raising the price of sugar is here spoken swer I can make to both. With respect to that part of of as a benefit to the South, and as a fact produced by the the argument of the gentleman from Massachusetts, which tariff. It is somewhat strange that duties should have this went to prove that the consumer, or last purchaser, pays straightforward effect only when they protect Southern for the article, with the duty, charges, and profits, includ-productions; but it is certainly true as to all, and so largely ed, I have done what I could to prove that there is no so in this instance, that Louisiana votes for all the other mistake in that. The proposition of the gentleman from burdens to secure it. But the ad captandum saying is the South Carolina [Mr. McDUFFIE] is based on the supposi- reverse of this. To the complaint made of this or any other tion of its truth; and the charge of inequality, which I duty, whether he can think or not, every tariff man is armthink I have made good, is based entirely on the proposi-ed with the ready answer, that the facts bear out the ta tion that the duty, charges, and profits are included in riff argument. Sugar is now but little more than half the the price paid by the last purchaser. But the sugar tax, it is said, is beneficial to the South; that it acts directly, by raising the price of sugar-indirectly, by keeping up the price of cotton; for, if the duty be repealed, the sugar planters will become cotton planters, and increase the evil of over-production; and the never-failing theme that the price of slaves is kept up by this tax on sugar, is resorted to. As to the second proposition, which I will consider first, some of my tariff friends had convinced me that, ere it be long, if that time has not come, cotton must and will be produced at the smallest rate of living profit, without mond, would have purchased from one hundred and fifty the aid of the change alluded to. But this population of to two hundred pounds of sugar in the West Indies. From twenty-five or thirty thousand could produce but little that time to this, the prices of sugar in the West Indies, effect on the cotton market, if the change were to take and the price of tobacco in Richmond, have fallen in nearly place, of which, by the way, I have not the most distant equal degrees; and I believe that a hogshead of tobacco suspicion. I have read the books, and examined the cal-may be this day sold in the Richmond market for a sum of culations by which it has been proven that the sugar money which, in the West Indies, will buy as much sugar planter can scarcely save himself from ruin at the pre-as the proceeds of the same quantity would have purchas sent rates. I shall go into no minute dissection of this ed in 1818. But how stands the matter now? I have to affair, made up for the occasion; enough appears on give near two hundred pounds of tobacco, in Richmond, its surface to destroy its influence. In the first place, for one hundred pounds of sugar, and this is the direct the rate of profits fixes the price of the lands and slaves effect of a duty of three cents per pound which form the capital upon which the estimate of the per less than twenty per cent. on the value of a pound of good centum profit is made. From such premises, nothing but tobacco, and now seventy-five per cent.-then twenty a blunder in the calculation could avoid the conclusion five per cent. on sugar, now from sixty to more than one that the profits are about equal to the general value of hundred per cent. Thus, it is seen that a specific duty, money. But the claim set up, that the duty on sugar keeps under the circumstances which have occurred, has been a up the price of slaves, proves that slave labor is more pro-rapidly increasing burden on the labor which pays it. fitable in producing sugar than any thing else. How the The price of bar iron, and that of sheets, rods, and hoops,

is

price it bore in 1818. If, in point of fact, you obtain the article cheaper, how are you injured? The answer is, that it is not true that the article is cheaper because it costs less money. The fact is, that labor, and not money, the true measure of value; and it will now cost me from one and a half to two days' work to get the quantity of sugar that one day's work would have purchased in 1818. At that time, one hundred pounds of tobacco would have exchanged, in the Richmond market, for one hundred pounds of sugar.

The same tobacco then sold in Rich

on sugar-then

exhibits the effect of this system in a still more striking light. This article, like that of sugar, has fallen in the countries whence we import it at least equally with the general fall of other things. But how stands the matter in our market? Since 1818 the fall has not exceeded ten per cent., and this because, as the price lowered in foreign parts, it was met by our legislation with an increasing duty; so that a given quantity of labor, fuel, and use of capital, which, in 1818, would produce iron of the value of $10, will now produce the same iron, which is worth $9. The quantity of labor then necessary for a planter to perform to get the said sum of $10, will now produce from $3 to $4, or less than half the iron; and this planter is told that you have caused him to get his iron and sugar cheaper, and that nothing but delusion prevents him from seeing the benignant effects of your system. But I tell you that nothing but the want of precise knowledge of foreign prices, and of the complex laws by which the prices of foreign and domestic goods have been prevented from fall. ing in an equal degree with his labor, has enabled you to keep this yoke on the neck of the planter up to this time. He needs but to see it as it is, and it is gone. And that which is true of the planter is equally so of every one, the money price of the produce of whose labor is fixed by reference to the foreign market, and all that are directly connected with, or dependent on them.

[H. OF R.

set the game, most likely, beyond the ground of living hope? In the first place, fifty per cent. is added to the time of acquiring the capital, which before embraced the object; and, secondly, fifty per cent. is again added to that time, before he can save the increased sum which the diminution of his annual means has made necessary; and yet it is said that nothing but delusion prevents us from seeing how this process makes us rich! But, sir, this evil, with the rest, has not been inflicted on us: it is a false assumption that the sugar planters regulate the price of slaves. The whole number purchased annually by them bears too small a proportion to the number of actual sales, to have any material effect. The rich cotton lands of the Southwest require and take a much larger number; but notwithstanding all the demand, the price is fixed by another standard. I have of late noted somewhat particularly the price of slaves, with reference to a remark of an old uncle, made when male laborers sold for from twelve to fifteen hundred dollars. He said that they were at no higher price then than when he was a boy; that seven good hogsheads of tobacco had been generally the price of a negro man, and was then the price. Without affecting precision in this matter, I have no difficulty in saying that the price of tobacco regulates the price of slaves in Virginia, and the price now is about seven hogsheads of medium tobacco. The higher price in Louisiana, What I have said of sugar and iron, is equally true of and other Southwestern States, is made up wholly of the coarse woollens, except that, as to the latter, the rise of du- expense and risk of the travel and profits of the traders. ties has been so great as to overcome all the fall in the fo- The predilection for this property causes the land always reign market, and has produced positive increase in the to sustain a somewhat over-proportion of the fall produced price; so that three days' work will not procure the pro- by a change of times, and did so long before the demand tection against wind and weather that the working man in Louisiana existed. There is one small advantage acused to get in one. The whole round of necessaries would knowledged as resulting from the Southwestern trade in exhibit nearly the same picture: light shades of difference slaves. The traders who supply that market have cash only could be marked. The broad line of distinction is, capitals; there is a sufficient number of them to create the poor are taxed without mercy, the rich lightly; and some competition between themselves; and when, from now the rich must be relieved, but the poor belong to the our exactions, and his own generous temper, the Southern great interests. You seem to have had a sort of pity on planter is bankrupt, and his slaves sold out under a deed the working man in respect to his tools, and content your-of trust, or by his executor, for cash, these traders will make selves with requiring him to pay the factories which produce axes, adzes, drawing-knives, spades, shovels, scythes, and sickles, from 384 to 44 cents only out of every dollar which he is compelled to lay out in such things. I will go no further with these details. The largest sheet of items and figures which the Secretary of the Treasury has caused to be laid on our tables, deserves an extra from every paper in the United States, the editor of which thinks that the people should have some hand in the disposition of

their cash.

each other give nearly the common country price, whereby creditors often, and the wife and children sometimes, are benefited.

The gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. APPLETON] asks where are the working white men of the South, and says that the complaints all come from Southern capitalists, remarking that not even the stimulus of the tariff can put these white men of the South to work, and most truly saying that the varied effect of the tariff laws on the North and South arises not from the character of the system itBut the great benefit conferred on the South, by keep- self, but from the condition of the Southern people, (as ing up the price of their slaves, I have heard it said, out- slaveholders, I presume.) Now, sir, as to the supposi weighs all this taxation; and I have seen figures set down, tion of the gentleman that the complaints of the wealthy and sums worked in the rule of three, to prove the mil- men of the South are alone heard here, I can only say I lions of profit or capital thus created. It looks a little odd am sorry he understands so little of the real pressure of the on the face, but let us inspect it closely. It requires a system, and the persons whose expostulations now resound certain capital, in slaves, to produce a profit of $1,000 by from one end of the Union to the other. It is very true making tobacco. You tax the goods I must purchase $300, that your tables do not groan with petitions from them, as in order that the same quantity of slave labor plied by and they do from their adversaries; but I represent here, in a for some one else may produce $1,500; and I am to deem peculiar manner, the working white men of my district, myself compensated for the loss of $300 annually, by the whose necessary supplies your system taxes above the mefact that the capital in slaves, which will now produce me dium of forty-five per cent. They are a description of $700, besides the tax, to produce the effect, must be fifty persons, for the most part no strangers to New England, per cent. larger than that capital which before would pro- who live at their own houses, cultivate their own lands; duce $1,000. We have yet among us those who strive some have slaves, and some have none. They sent depuagainst wind and tide to work up to fortune: there are the ties to Philadelphia to meet their fellow-citizens from all reliable men of all countries, the bone and muscle of the quarters of the Union. They sent on lists of their griev State; see how their progress is aided by this bounty of a ances. Their cause has been argued in the free trade meparental Government! You pass a law which has the de- morial with a candor and unrivalled ability for which their sired effect; the magic has made each $100 value of slave deepest thanks will be always returned. These working property worth $150, and reduced the profits of its labor white men never have asked aid or stimulus from this Goone-third. The eye of the planter is fixed on acquiring vernment. That we employ ourselves about the common for his oldest son a settlement like his own in his own and general concerns committed to our charge, make the country. Cannot you see, at once, how you have post office establishment as convenient to them as we can,

VOL. VIII.-203

H. OF R.]

[JUNE 1, 1832.

The CHAIR said this could only be done by general consent.

and tax them but their due share of the needed expenses, is all they desire of us. They know their rights, and I Mr. WHITTLESEY. I object. As the representative trust in God have the will and power to defend them. The gentlemen adverts to political reasons, as those of 70,000 of the people of Ohio, I have deemed it my duty which prevent what he deems the advantages of this sys- to bring forward a proposition for examining into the conThese causes, Mr. duct of the Postmaster General, and the proceedings of the tem from being reaped by the South. have not done this out of wanChairman, difference in climate and population, laws, cus- Post Office Department. toms, and pursuits, existed when this Government was tonness, much less with a view to produce a political efformed; they were the reasons why the powers given to fect: but I have done it from a sincere belief that in that this Government were meted out with such cautious jea- department of the Government there were crrors, there lousy, and why no power to make general laws affecting was favoritism, gross favoritism, and such as should be exthe life, liberty, property, or character of the citizen was amined into and corrected. I never was one of those pogiven to us; and whether we suppose such to be given to liticians who desire to agitate this House, or this nation, us or not, we can make no law to have extensive local ef- with a view to mere political effect. I appeal to all who fect on the property and labor of the citizens throughout hear me to say whether a proposition of that character No, sir; I am the United States, but it will be so glaringly unjust and op- was ever sprung upon this House by me. pressive as to show most clearly the wisdom of leaving not one of those politicians who oppose an administraall the domestic concerns of the citizen to the care of a Go- tion, "though it were as pure as the angels round the vernment having knowledge of, and care for them. These throne of God." It is no matter at all to me, personally, tariff laws, with the facts I have adduced, and many more who is the Chief Magistrate, so far as I am concerned. might be brought forward, demonstrate the utter impossi- never have sought office, and I never would accept of an bility for this Government to maintain such a course of office from the hand of any President of the United States The gentleman so long as I hold a seat upon this floor. legislation. Mr. Chairman, my constituents are, in a high degrec, says, if I will specify some particular object of inquiry, he the friends of law and order; their attachment to the union will support the motion. Sir, I thought I was not bound of these States, on the principles of the constitution, has to turn special pleader before this House: and it is a new no limits whatever. But they cannot, for simple union doctrine to me that we must enter on a course of special sake, give up that constitution itself; and if this system of pleading before we can examine into the conduct of the taxing them forty-five or fifty per cent. on all their dis-officers of any department of this Government. bursements, not for the need of Government, but to be sider it as one of the greatest of our public evils that given to capitalists, is rendered permanent, and they bear such a doctrine should be received; for it proceeds on the it, then would they not be the sons of the men of seventy-principle that offices are the property of their incumbents, six, "but bastards"-that they will never be.

FRIDAY, JUNE 1.
WITNESSES.

I

I con

and sacred to their benefit. I say that all the officers of this Government are but agents of the people of the United States, and I say further that we have a right to examine generally into the conduct of any or all of them, wish to examine.

Mr. WAYNE said that a practice prevailed, with re-without previously giving the particulars into which we spect to witnesses subpoenaed to attend the House, which demanded some attention on the part of the House, viz. When witnesses were so called on, although they might be in this city, it was customary to allow them return mileage to their respective homes. The subject had been brought to his notice that morning, and he felt it his duty, in consequence, to waive a call for a particular witness, and to submit the following resolution, to have some regulation in respect to the practice adopted:

Here the CHAIR reminded the gentleman from Ohio that it was not in order to go into a discussion of the merits of the resolution or amendment on a motion to suspend the rule of the House.

Resolved, That the Committee on the Judiciary be directed to report a bill providing for the daily compensation and mileage of witnesses who may be summoned by either House of Congress, or by the chairmen of committees.

GENERAL POST OFFICE.

The resolution of Mr. EVERETT, of Vermont, on the subject of certain contracts made by the Post Office Department, together with the amendment of Mr. WHITTLESEY thereto, proposing a general inquiry into the concerns of the Post Office Department, coming up for consideration,

Mr. ROOT inquired whether the motion to suspend was not a debatable motion.

The CHAIR replied in the negative.

Mr. ROOT. What, sir, not debatable! I should like to see, among all the mass and multitude of your rules of order, where is the rule which authorizes the Chair so to decide.

The SPEAKER. The Chair has decided that the ques tion is not debatable. The gentleman can take his appeal to the House if he chooses.

Mr. ROOT did not appeal.

Mr. H. EVERETT demanded the yeas and nays upon the suspension of the rule.

They were ordered, and, being taken, stood as follows: yeas 108, nays 56.

There being not two-thirds, the rule was not suspended. Mr. R. M. JOHNSON (chairman of the Committee on Mr. JOHNSON then proceeded. Sir, I ought to think the Post Office and Post Roads) again took the floor, and myself one of the happiest of men, that a vote of this House observed that when last interrupted by the expiration of should constrain me to speak, when I thought that the the hour, he had expressed his willingness to assent to House had business much more important before it than the resolution of the gentleman from Vermont, if the any thing I could say to this very intelligent and highly gentleman from Ohio would consent to withdraw his respectable body of the representatives of the people of But, Mr. Speaker, it appears that I amendment, and thus save much valuable time: and he the United States.

said he was still desirous of giving way to the pressing and was mistaken; and I find that which I have to say is conimportant business before the House, rather than occupy sidered as more important than any of the business which the time of the House with any remarks of his: and in is before you. Sir, the reason why I made the motion to order to test the sense of the House upon the subject, he suspend the rule was, that I wanted a little more elbowI thought that if I could be permitted to waive would propose that the rule setting apart an hour to the room. consideration of resolutions and petitions be suspended, my privilege for a few mornings, while the House proand that the House proceed to the business upon the ceeded with its business, that in a little while I could get some more elbow-room, and should not have to speak Speaker's table.

JUNE 1, 1832.]

Indian Relations.

[H. OF R.

under so much restraint and constraint. Mr. Speaker, think that that gives him a right to bring forward this I hope that the majority of the House, I mean the actual proposition. Now, sir, I do not represent quite 70,000; majority in numbers, though it be not the majority under but I believe I represent 60,000. However, here we are, the rule; I do not mean that majority which consists of and we find ourselves under the constitution of the United only one-third of the body, but the real majority of this States with certain rights on this floor. Sir, I stated House, will do me the justice to own that I have not been before, that I considered it a violation of etiquette, and I anxious to force myself upon the House. want to introduce a little etiquette here. At this point of Mr. J.'s progress, the hour having elapsed, Mr. IRVIN called for the orders of the day; and the House proceeded to other business.

INDIAN RELATIONS.

However, sir, as the House has determined that I shall speak, 1 must proceed, not secundum artem, however, no, sir, but I must run up and down the different subjects which I think it important to communicate to this House. I would appeal to the House, to gentlemen all around me, on all sides of me, to say whether, in a session which has The House went into committee, Mr. KERR in the lasted now for six months, I have shown any disposition chair, on an amendment of the Senate to the bill re-apto intrude myself upon their attention. You, sir, honored propriating certain unexpended balances before approprime by appointing me chairman of the Committee on the ated; and, also, to the bill for carrying into effect certain Post Office and Post Roads; and here we have a general Indian treaties.

warrant brought forward by my friend from Ohio to The amendment to the latter of these bills proposed search into that department. I am sorry my friend has the appropriation of $20,000 for the subsistence of such departed from his usual course, by showing a little impa-friendly Indians as may take refuge on our frontier during tience, a little passion. Now, sir, I do not want to show any the existing difficulties with the hostile tribes. passion about the matter, I want to keep cool--sir, there Mr. ASHLEY, of Missouri, moved that the House disais danger of fretting this warm weather. But, Mr. Speaker,gree to this amendment. He stated that Indians would there is no man that knows much of me that does not know take advantage of such a provision, as they had done duthat I yield none of my rights to passion, in any body. And, ring the last war; when many had professed to be friendly sir, if my friend is desirous of knitting his brows, why, he to the United States, and when their wives and children can do it, to gratify himself; it certainly does not gratify were received within our lines, and supported, turned me. I believe the inquiry he has proposed will do no about, and drove off the cattle of the settlers, and massagood. I preferred voting for the proposition of the gen-cred many. While under the protection of the United tleman from Vermont, [Mr. EVERETT,] and I am ready States' posts, they would send out men to hunt, who comto vote for it. But I will not vote for the general war- municated to the hostile Indians all the movements and rant of the honorable member from Ohio, nor do I believe purposes of the whites. Mr. A. said he was for holding that this House, in justice to the country, can grant such the friendly Indians responsible for the conduct of those a warrant, at this late period of the session. who were hostile. They were the true people to put Mr. Speaker, what is before you? Have not I as much down Indian hostilities. But what inducement would right to speak in favor of the Post Office Department as they have to do this, if they were sure of having their fahe has to speak against it? I have endeavored to avoid milies supported so long as a state of war should continue? taking up the morning hour in a discussion of this kind. Would it not be an inducement to push on the others to What have we before us? A bill granting between two war? Mr. A. said he had seen so much to dislike in the and three hundred thousand dollars to the poor aborigines policy and regulations of this Government in relation to of the country. It was sent from this House to the Senate, Indians, that, as he knew a little more on that subject than and it has come back with an amendment proposing to a majority of the House, he felt constrained, however appropriate a sum for the Creek nation. Sir, I stated in disagreeable it might be, to bring the facts before the my place, and my worthy associate also stated, that we House. had information that the tribes were in urgent want of this money. They have abandoned their improvements to go to the West; but they are not able to remove, and remain waiting in suspense, while we have here three or four hundred thousand dollars of the money we promised them, fast locked up.

Here Mr. WHITTLESEY interposed. I call the gentleman to order: he is discussing an Indian bill.

Mr. DUNCAN said he regretted to find that the gentleman from Missouri was opposed to the amendment. The friendly Indians on that frontier, which was the seat of war, were in the midst of those who were hostile to the United States, surrounded by and intermingled with them, and it would be perfectly impossible, so long as that was the case, for our militia to discriminate between them. The disaffected Indians were not very numerous, Mr. JOHNSON. I hope, sir, the gentleman will go on and were confined to two or three tribes only. Yet, within to show his impatience. He is no office seeker, sir; I had the reach of our troops, there were some ten or fifteen not accused him of seeking after office; but he tells us that tribes; and one act of hostility committed on one of these he is a very honest man, and no office seeker. Well, sir, I friendly tribes would be sufficient to involve the whole suppose he is a very honest man; I believe he is; but I frontier in trouble for years. The object aimed at by the surely am not out of order in replying to what he said; it Senate's amendment was to invite the friendly Indians thus has as much to do with the subject as his not being an office exposed to come within the protection of our posts. If seeker, and I hope I may be permitted to congratulate the they should be confined to their villages, the hostile InHouse upon that discovery. I always myself accorded to dians, whenever they should be routed, would seek rethe gentleman honesty of purpose; but, sir, I was going fuge there. The effect of this resolution would settle to draw a contrast. I was talking about the value of our the question, who among the Indians were friendly, and time; and I say it is more important that this hour should who were hostile; and that separation is indispensable be given to the poor Indian tribes that are suffering, than to any thing like justice in the operation of our troops. to the proposition of the honorable member, with all his The sum proposed is not too large, and the recommendapurity of intention, and all his not seeking for office; and tion came regularly from the department. And even had I put it to the House whether it is not so. But, sir, I Mr. D. been disposed to doubt its propriety, his confihave been forced out, and I have not done with this morn-dence in the experience and knowledge of the present ing alone. If I am not the representative of 70,000 peo- Secretary in whatever related to the management of Inple, I think that when we strike for our districts under the dian affairs, would be sufficient to convince him that such How census, I shall perhaps represent as many as that. doubts were unfounded. says that he represents 70,000 people, and seems to

He

Mr. VINTON inquired whether the hostile Indians had

H. OF R.]

Indian Relations.

[JUNE 1, 1832.

committed any acts of violence upon those who were ed their property. He said they had again invaded their friendly. country, had commenced hostilities, and fought a despeMr. DUNCAN replied in the negative. On the con- rate battle; that the leader of this band, and most of his trary, they had been using every means to conciliate their followers, had ever been hostile to the whites; they had favor, and enlist them in the general cause. There were never treated, (except last year, when they sued for several tribes within a day's march of the hostile Indians, peace,) or assented to any treaty made with the United and they had been holding councils, and having smokes States; they had always been in the habit of receiving with them, with a view to enlisting their aid. The friend presents from the British Government at Malden, and had ly Indians had thus far refused; but if our militia should held but little intercourse, even with their own tribe, the touch any one of them, they would all turn against us as chief of which had no influence over them whatever. He believed that nothing short of the destruction or total defeat of this band would give peace to the frontier, and he hoped that no means would be withheld which might be thought necessary to effect that object.

one man.

The question being taken, the yeas were 32, the nays 48. A quorum not having voted, the debate was continued. Mr. HOGAN admitted that the gentleman from Missouri [Mr. ASHLEY] possessed great knowledge on all that re- Mr. VANCE moved to amend by striking out the lated to Indian affairs; but he must consider that of the amendment of the Senate, granting the 20,000 dollars, present Secretary of War as not less extensive. Mr. H. and inserting, in lieu thereof, a section directing the differdwelt upon the threatening aspect of the war, the proba-ent Indian agents to supply such of the friendly Indians as bility of a great increase of the number of hostile tribes, might claim protection, with rations from the Subsistand the obligation of treaties, as well as of justice and huence Department.

manity, which required the protection of such as were Mr. VANCE said that the amendment proposed was friendly to the United States. He thought the sum too merely to go back to the former practice of the Governsmall; it would only support two thousand Indians for ment, with respect to friendly Indians as being under the one hundred days; but as more had not been asked for by protection of the United States during the last war. He the department, he should not move for an increase of thought there was no necessity for this appropriation. the appropriation. The amendment would leave it at the discretion of the agents to supply rations when they were required, at the several outposts.

Mr. VERPLANCK, after expressing great respect for the experience and knowledge of the gentleman from Missouri, sent to the Chair a letter from the Secretary of Mr. CLAY thought the amendment of the gentlemans War, explaining the necessity of the appropriation asked for. from Ohio more objectionable than the amendment of the Mr. ASHLEY replied, and further insisted upon his Senate, inasmuch as it left the the amount of appropriation opposition to the amendment. The present war had to the discretion of the Indian agents. The Senate proposed originated from a demand made by the United States upon to appropriate 20,000 dollars. There the expenditure one band of Indians for the murderers of another band, must stop; but if the committee adopted the amendment whom they had massacred contrary to a treaty with the of the gentleman from Ohio, it might amount to 100,000 United States. Mr. A. was opposed to all interference dollars. He hoped, therefore, this amendment would not by this Government in Indian disputes. It was sure to be adopted.

make the Indians our irreconcilable foes. Though they Mr. VANCE said that this was the first time, on the ocmight be compelled for a time to be at peace with each casion of a little alarm on the frontiers, that he had ever other, they would cherish a deadly hostility to the party who had interfered.

heard of such an application to that House. He merely wished that the business should be left where it formerly rested. If the Indians wanted protection, he was desirous that they should have it; but he believed the alarm would be over in a few days, unless a temptation was held out which might make it desirable to parties interested that

Mr. A. was a friend to Indians, and only opposed this amendment, because he thought that while it guarded against one evil, it would lead to another much more serious. The Indians on our frontier could muster in all about 30,000 warriors. Of this number only two or three it should be continued. hundred had entered into hostilities. They were a very small minority, and the other Indians might easily coerce them into peace. But if the plan now proposed should take effect, the friendly Indians would have an interest in continuing the war. Mr. A. again adverted to his know ledge of Indian affairs, and insisted that if his advice had been taken two years ago, the present difficulties would never have taken place. He disclaimed, however, every thing like vanity.

Mr. DUNCAN concurred in the amendment of the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. VANCE.] He thought the discretion ought to be left to those who knew when assistance was needed; it might otherwise be sent where it was not required.

Mr. McDUFFIE said he had not had an opportunity of examining the amendment of the Senate. He concurred, however, in what had fallen from the gentleman from Missouri; and, as he believed him to be conversant with the Mr. HOGAN further defended the amendment; and subject, would take his judgment upon it. He thought Mr. DEARBORN said he should be gratified if the the proposition, enabling the Indians to come in and take gentleman from Illinois could communicate any intelli-protection in the way proposed, was no better than holdgence as to the cause of the present Indian war. ing out a bribe to them to become the pensioners of the Mr. DUNCAN said it was out of his power to inform United States. With respect to the danger arising from the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. DEARBORN] the want of discrimination on the part of our own troops, what had caused the hostilities on the frontier; he had he thought that, if they could not distinguish a friendly often heard it mentioned by traders, that most of the In- from a hostile tribe of Indians, they ought not to be trusted dian tribes, from the lakes to the mountains, had been less with arms. friendly within the last three years, than at any period Mr. INGERSOLL said he was inclined to support the since the late war, but bad never heard any reason assign- amendment of the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. VANCE.] ed. He said the attack on our citizens, made by a party Although he had great confidence in the gentleman from of Winnebagoes in 1827, had, as far as he knew, been Missouri, [Mr. ASHLEY,] and believed him to be particuwithout cause. The invasion of the State of Illinois, by larly conversant on this subject, he had confidence, also, the British band of Sacs and Foxes last year, was a daring in the recommendation of the Secretary of War. outrage that merited punishment. They had not only as- was it upon his judgment alone he [Mr. 1.] founded the sembled and assumed an attitude of defiance, but actually opinion he entertained; the course recommended was one drove many citizens from their houses, burnt and destroy- which had been pursued by the Government of this coun

Nor