There is an open question then as to how we should proceed in the United States assuming, No. 1, the product meets the purity standards as it does, assuming the people know what goes into their foods as required today by the Food and Drug Administration.

I think there is a very serious question as to whether or not the Government and, in fact, industry should ask FDA to reconsider this limitation.

Mr. POLLOCK. Would the gentleman yield at this point?

Mr. LENNON. Of course.

NEED TO REMOVE FDA LIMITATION

Mr. POLLOCK. Isn't there a probability now that this can be changed because the initial emphasis of the FDA, I think, was to get something established to get it going and this has been now a year or so that that limitation has been put on.

Would this not be a good time to try to open this up again?

Dr. WENK. Mr. Pollock, I think it is, indeed; and the point Mr. Lennon raised about our now looking at the domestic markets for FPC; underscores the importance of doing this now.

The FDA over the years has raised different objections and, following the normal process, it was necessary to provide specific evidence that would overcome those objections. This has been done.

The product is now completely accepted from the point of view of purity.

It does have this packaging limitation and I agree completely with you that this is perhaps now the time to look at this.

Mr. KEITH. If the gentleman would yield further, as you know, the plant that is packaging FPC is in my district.

We were up there for the dedication of the plant and I assume that you know that they find it almost impossible to comply with this ruling.

What action have you taken to overcome that handicap?

Dr. WENK. When the group met to examine this question of a domestic market for FPC, one of the issues that it put on its agenda was the question of how much does this 1-pound packaging inhibit the development of domestic markets and consequently prevent the accessibility of a low-cost protein food to those who need it.

That group is coming in to the Council with recommendations this

summer.

Mr. KEITH. Do you think the parents of the children in San Antonio suffering from kwashiorkor are worried about the FDA's paper problems in this respect?

Don't you think they need it now?

Did you see that CBS film?

Dr. WENK. I did, Mr. Keith; and it was a most dramatic demonstration of hunger in this country.

Mr. KEITH. It seems that fish protein is made for that problem domestically and something is wrong with our bureaucracy if we can't bring together the parties most involved and most responsible. Mr. LENNON. Let me see if I understand this.

The FDA has a type of FPC but the limitation is that it cannot be added to bread, noodles, macaroni, flour; is that so?

Dr. WENK. It cannot be added for domestic consumption.

As I understand it, the present limitation by FDA is that the product when marketed domestically must be marketed in 1-pound packages.

Mr. LENNON. It is on the market now.

Dr. WENK. There is no product that can be bought today in 1-pound packages. We are at an early stage of development of the product. where there is not a commercially available product that can be purchased by any individual consumer, but this is developing very quickly.

Mr. LENNON. Is it your understanding that the Federal Food and Drug Administration is willing to sit down with the Department of Agriculture to work out a way by which it could remove some of its restrictions with respect to the size of the package and also the use of it as a mix with noodles or macaroni or flour or anything of that kind?

Dr. WENK. Mr. Lennon, we have a very keen interest ourselves in seeing that limitation removed.

Mr. LENNON. I am advised that the Federal Food and Drug Administration at a recent conference said they were prepared to do that if they received a request from the Department of Agriculture.

Dr. WENK. I am not familiar with that particular statement but I will pursue that immediately.

Mr. LENNON. They said they were prepared to sit down with the Department of Agriculture and work out restrictions that would permit the sale of this FPC in packages larger than 1-pound which, of course, is prohibitive for practical use.

It could be used with certain types of noodles and macaroni and flour and other commodities of that kind which are now distributed by the Department of Agriculture in our counties where they are eligible for food stamps or the surplus commodity food program.

Dr. WENK. I am pleased to hear of their spontaneous recognition of this problem. I had not been aware of this and we will pursue it immediately.

Moreover, the expression of opinion that I have heard here today from this committee will be most helpful to us in going back to FDÅ and making sure that there is some very prompt action taken on this point.

Mr. MORTON. Would the gentleman yield for just one question? Mr. LENNON. Yes.

SUITABILITY OF FPC AS SUPPLEMENT

Mr. MORTON. Is there considerable work going on in the industry to determine whether the nutritional value or the flavor of food will be changed if it is enriched with FPC?

I am thinking of the enrichment of protein back in the 30's when the protein industry enriched vitamins with minerals.

Maybe now we can enrich dried potatoes and other vegetables with protein.

Is there work going on to find out if that is practical?

Dr. WENK. There is indeed. There is some research being undertaken by the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries and by private industry to determine the mechanism by which such food supplement can be introduced.

Let me give you an example.

They have found that the fineness of FPC is a factor in its ability to blend in with other substances without changing the texture of the food.

If the powder is too coarse, you may get a gritty feel when you chew it so this would be objectionable.

They had to determine the extra cost of grinding this to a certain fineness. They also have had to find out how to make sure it does not become lumpy.

Finally there is the question of flavor. Here is an interesting characteristic of the product. It is almost completely free of any flavor. People have said if you really want to turn out a fish product with FPC in it, you may have to add the flavor of fish. This indicates the great flexibility that you have in the product.

Mr. POLLOCK. Would the gentleman yield for a followup on this question.

Mr. LENNON. Yes.

Mr. POLLOCK. Doctor, you and I participated recently in an MIT symposium and got into this. I think the gentleman from Maryland might be interested.

I have a strong feeling that it really should be FPC put into the cereals distributed throughout the Nation so people can get something besides straw; and the different products can really live up to the products as they have outlined on their labels.

Dr. WENK. I have been struck as I have sat across from a box of cereal in the morning that one has to be a chemist to know what is in that product.

Mr. MORTON. Mr. Chairman, I won't make a point of order but I am tempted to. I have been in the cereal business all my life and I know there is no greater bargain in carbohydrates, proteins, and so on. Mr. POLLOCK. I will confine it to dry cereals, Mr. Chairman.

AID PROCUREMENT STANDARDS

Mr. LENNON. Doctor, does the FPC-AID program meet the FDA standards?

Dr. WENK. There were explicit standards for solvent retention when the AID invited bids and they evaluated the proposal to make sure that the bidders' claims could be substantiated in terms of their production plant.

Mr. LENNON. In other words, the content is no higher than is specified in the AID contract?

Dr. WENK. On the solvent, that is correct.

Mr. LENNON. Mr. Dellenback?

Mr. DELLENBACK. Is it anticipated, Dr. Wenk

Mr. LENNON. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. POLLOCK. I will make a very brief statement, not only for Dr. Wenk but for all of the witnesses today.

In my own State of Alaska, I am continually frustrated by the need to find some funds or some way to encourage private industry to get into the fish protein concentrate business and I find most of my efforts

directed toward trying to get some foreign nation borrowing money from the United States to use it in Alaska which is also awesome.

I think some real effort has to be given to finding a way to honestly help industry; and this means to help them finance it, by giving them some tax incentives perhaps, whatever, and also by trying to really create some markets.

I think the U.S. Government should be the No. 1 prime market for

5 or 10 years.

I think there are a number of areas for local and worldwide problems for feeding the starving people.

Dr. WENK. I think the point you raise, Mr. Pollock, is well taken. In a sense, I share that frustration in seeing this hunger problem continue while we are just nibbling at it. I believe we are going to have the benefit of major recommendations in this area from the Commission on Marine Science Engineering and Resources that was set up parallel to our Council. We are looking forward to those within the next 6 months. I think they will give us a great deal more of a springboard-just the point you have raised.

Mr. LENNON. We thank you, gentlemen.

Our next witness is Mr. Paul A. Sutton, vice president of Alpine Geophysical Associates.

Do you have a prepared statement, sir?

Mr. SUTTON. No, sir.

As a matter of fact, I learned that I was going to be here on rather short notice and I do not have a prepared statement.

Mr. LENNON. You may proceed in your own way.

STATEMENT OF PAUL A. SUTTON, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, ALPINE GEOPHYSICAL ASSOCIATES, INC.

Mr. SUTTON. I would like to make some extemporaneous remarks with relation to the question in hand.

My firm apparently is the only company at the present time in the United States that is in full production of an approved FPC for commercial purposes.

Mr. LENNON. Your product has been approved by the FDA for commercial purposes?

Mr. SUTTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. LENNON. In this country or all over the whole world?

Mr. SUTTON. It is approved as a wholesome product. It is limited in the United States by the 1-pound restriction.

However, within the body of the regulation FDA produced, there is provision for distribution in the United States.

However, that distribution is inhibited by the 1-pound package making it essentially impossible to commercially distribute.

In directing my comments to the request to have these funds for the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries experimental plant, I would like to add my support to that request.

As the only commercial plant in existence at the present time, we do not feel this conflicts with our best interests as a member of the industrial community.

The process that we use in producing FPC is a somewhat different

process than that which has been developed by the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries.

Both processes produce materials which are approved by the FDA. They are both wholesome and safe and nutritious products.

We see the need for additional research for a variety of reasons. We have technical reason to believe that there are additional processes that can produce this material perhaps more easily than present processes, perhaps more economically than present processes.

Therefore, we would like to encourage the Bureau of Commercial Fisheries in this endeavor and we would like to add our recommendation to having those funds made available for that purpose.

I would like to direct several comments, if I may, toward two key issues in this matter which Dr. Wenk very ably pointed out.

One is the question of incentive. This is a vitally important one if we are talking about engaging the interest and participation of American free enterprise.

Economic incentive is a necessity in order to get stockholders' funds committed for these purposes.

The second question that I would like to direct a comment to is that of price and cost.

It seems to us and apparently we are not alone in feeling this way that unless an industry is based on an ability to produce and distribute for profit in the United States that there is a severe inhibition to that industry to produce for external use; that is to say, for foreign or export use.

We feel that both in terms of numbers of industrial groups involved in this field of production of FPC will be substantially improved. Cost reductions to a considerable extent are realizable provided there is a market developed in the United States.

It seems to us not essential to have a market analysis for this purpose and in fact rather contradictory to the normal processes of Ameri

can commerce.

If in fact the barrier to trade is removed, we believe that removal will result in numbers of competitors appearing on the scene, competitors of ours, additional suppliers of this material for use both in the United States and abroad.

I would like to submit to the committee for its examination a loaf of bread that was produced using 10 percent of FPC as used in our present facilities.

I think you will find upon examining this bread that it has a rather delightful aroma of fresh baked bread. It has no resemblance to fish in any form at all.

You can feel perfectly free to eat that material. It is not only safe but it is delightful in flavor.

You will find also that it has no grittiness.

It is a quite acceptable product in all ways.

Mr. LENNON. Let me ask you a specific question if I may.

Does the Alpine Co. now produce FPC according to FDA standards? Mr. SUTTON. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. LENNON. Does your AID contract require that the FPC you produce meet the full FDA requirements for AID to be used in the United States?

Mr. SUTTON. No.