straightening this out as we have it in this B furnace here you have a very much larger grate area here than you had formerly. Consequently, this measurement no longer is the proper measurement for a furnace.

You can take the same firebox as shown in A and B and by straightening this out you can get 25 percent more heat out of the furnace; in other words, the cubic area of the box will go from 254 to about 322 by straightening out those sides.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. That is without any change in the dimensions of the fire pot?

Mr. WALKER. But still that furnace is sold as an 18-, 20-, or 22inch furnace based on the measurement of the top of the firebox.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Now, Mr. Walker, in your opinion, what kind of standard could be arrive at for a furnace?

Mr. WALKER. There is a standard that has been recommended, but it was not accepted by the industry because, in our own case, in order to improve this product we had to spend $205,000, and because of the depressed condition of the industry many companies don't feel they want to spend that amount of money. Consequently, they oppose any rating, except the ratings that have been standard for years. But there is a rating that was worked out by the University of Illinois which, if used and made mandatory, would protect the consumer. It is based on the amount of fuel you put into a furnace minus the stack temperature, as the heat goes out, leaving the balance of the heat that goes into your home. That is the way to rate a furnace.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You say that such a standard as that would protect the consumer, meaning that the consumer is not protected under the standards now?

Mr. WALKER. He has no way in the world to know what he is getting. If the furnace is a certain width through the firepot, as shown here, it would be as much as 25 percent different in heat delivery of the product for the same size measurement.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. What is the effect of the absence of a valid standard in this industry upon you as a maker and seller of furnaces? Mr. WALKER. In order to meet the situation we have two furnaces, one of which we made in the twenties. We are showing two furnaces, one of the 22 delivering 254, the other 322. But it is necessary for us to keep both products and offer both products to anyone who wants the difference.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. And the old product that you carry you are able to sell at a lower price?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You carry that to meet competition of those who sell the old type?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Your conclusions, then, are that there ought to be a standard by which a furnace capacity or furnace performance could be rated, for both your interest and the interest of the consumer?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. By whom should such a standard be worked out? Have you any opinions on that?

Mr. WALKER. I have always felt there ought to be a standard that had some teeth in it. We have asked the Bureau of Standards to do this thing, or some agency that has authority so that the Federal Trade Commission, in case it was not respected, could take some action on it.

The CHAIRMAN. We have read a good deal in the public press and elsewhere about Government interference with business. I think from your statement, so far as you are concerned you are not particularly alarmed about that.

Mr. WALKER. No, sir; not at all.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, government can do a great deal to help business by protecting the public?

Mr. WALKER. It has been our feeling that they not only can but they have. The chairman of the board and our executive vice president, General Wood and Mr. Nelson, spend much of their time in Washington, as you probably know, and we believe they can do some good. They have done a great deal of good for the public.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You had a similar illustration in the case of boilers. I wish you would describe that to us. I think probably the easiest way would be to introduce your chart on that; perhaps just describe the situation right from the chart.

(The chart referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 540" and appears on p. 3419.)

Mr. WALKER. There again you have an industry, the foundry industry, that has been very much depressed through the steel companies trying to take its market away from it. There was no rating whatever on boilers up to the early twenties, consequently an association of contractors wrote to 17 boiler manufacturers and secured the size of their boilers and their claimed ratings, and they cubed the boiler and divided it by 17 and took the claimed ratings and divided them by 17 and said that was the average and rated boilers on that basis.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. I am not sure that is quite clear.

Mr. WALKER. I am going to show that. In other words, they took the width of a boiler, 23 inches across here if it happened to be that size, then took the height, which happened to be 41 inches in this illustration, and the length of 20 inches. They cubed these figures and in this boiler it figures out to be 18,860. Then they added the cubed results for each of the 17 manufacturers and divided this total by 17. They then said that on that size boiler they would take their claimed ratings and divide that by 17 and that was the rating of the boiler. That was the standard, which means nothing whatever. You come in the market today with a new boiler and if you raise this combustion chamber some, which would give you greater heat, or if you have a through travel and it would come through twice instead of once, you get no credit.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. In the rating-it would still rate the same. Mr. WALKER. Yes; it is still rated on the original average cube of 17 manufacturers in about 1921 or 1922. With the technological development in the United States of cast iron we are today able to produce a boiler that has 25 to 35 percent greater capacity than the boilers of the twenties, but so far as the public is concerned we have one rating and it is set up by a contractors' association. There

EXHIBIT No. 540

EXAMPLE: 5 SECTION BOILER

NEW BLR. CUBAGE

NEW BLR. RATING

=

AVERAGE BLR. CUBAGE AVERAGE BLR RATING

Industry 5 section average cubage -19,094 cu. in.

rating claim-236.5

NEW BOILER CUBAGE... 18,860 cu. in.

sq.

ft. steam

is no manufacturers' association rating at all. As a result of this condition, several of the better manufacturers built up a rating as it should be, but it has been opposed by numerous other manufacturers who don't want to spend money, and we have never been able to get it through. It certainly gives no knowledge whatever of the form of the boiler based on any industry rating.

The CHAIRMAN. What was the obstacle about your getting that through?

Mr. WALKER. Well, it was submitted to the Association of Manufacturers, something more than a year ago, and the majority of them refused to approve it.

The CHAIRMAN. What association of manufacturers?

Mr. WALKER. Association of Boiler Manufacturers.

The CHAIRMAN. Are you a member of that?

Mr. WALKER. Our company is; we have two companies which are members.

The CHAIRMAN. You have two companies which are members? Mr. WALKER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. What are those two companies?

Mr. WALKER. The Rundle Manufacturing Co. and Hart & Crouse. The CHAIRMAN. Are they subsidiaries of Sears Roebuck?

Mr. WALKER. Well, yes; one is a wholly owned company and the other is a partially owned.

The CHAIRMAN. And they are engaged

Mr. WALKER (interposing). In the manufacture of boilers.
The CHAIRMAN. Was the problem debated at length?

Mr. WALKER. No. It was submitted as a recommendation to all manufacturers in writing and was discussed. I wouldn't say it was debated at length; it was discussed.

The CHAIRMAN. What objections were given or made to the suggestion?

Mr. WALKER. I couldn't tell you. I didn't attend the meetings. I have, however, with me, the recommendations and so forth which

were sent out.

The CHAIRMAN. I was interested to know what, if any, argument was advanced against it.

Mr. WALKER. I don't know; I can't imagine any argument against it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, it would be difficult, but I wondered what was said.

Representative WILLIAMS. Would there be any financial consid

eration?

Mr. WALKER. Oh, yes. What would happen, it would force every manufacturer to modernize his product, because if you had a standard rating that was based on the heat output of a boiler and you were manufacturing a boiler that didn't deliver that heat you couldn't sell it, you would have to modernize your product, and when you must make molds it runs into money very quickly.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. On this same question, with respect to trying to get standards for fire pots, were you engaged in any effort there to try to get the industry to work out a standard?

Mr. WALKER. No. There is a standard now, and, as I say, it is very good, but there is no way to force all manufacturers to respect it. As an example, when three manufacturers came out with this

boiler with the straighter fire pot, immediately the ratings were raised. The other distributors and manufacturers just arbitrarily raised their ratings, although they didn't change their product, on the theory that if you put more coal in it, more often, you can get more heat out of it. The University of Illinois test is based on putting fuel in the boiler every 8 hours. If you put fuel in every 4 hours you will get more heat out of the boiler, but you waste a great deal of your fuel.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. In other words the other manufacturers used what purported to be a standard, but it wasn't a correct standard. Mr. WALKER. It wasn't a standard that should have been used.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. You mentioned the consumer. When I build a house the architect probably orders the boiler to go into my house, doesn't he?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. How does he select the capacity of the boiler? Mr. WALKER. On the rating of the association. Most architects use this rating set up by this contractors' association.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. Do you know, if he orders a boiler with a certain rating, which I suppose he has figured the house needs to get proper heat, by how much the boiler he actually buys may vary from that rating? How much difference is there above and below the actual capacity of the boilers that meet a certain rating?

Mr. WALKER. You can take the same amount of cast iron and the same amount of cost and product, and vary the performance by 35 percent at least.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. And still come within the same rating as the rating used now?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. So that the consumer may get a substantially inferior product, or get a product whose performance is substantially inferior to that which he expects and needs in his house?

Mr. WALKER. And in that connection the F. H. A. today is having a considerable amount of trouble on their loans. A good number of the heating plants do not perform, are not performing, and they are having considerable trouble with the banks over the fact that they are not getting what they thought they were getting in heating plants. Mr. MONTGOMERY. Will you explain further what some of the difficulties are when you get a furnace installed in your house, or a boiler installed in your house, that is materially under capacity?

Mr. WALKER. Well, first, when it is cold you have to fire quite often, and that is a matter of labor. Next, by firing it often you soon burn it out. You force the boiler or furnace too hard so you eventually burn it out, while if you have one that is properly sized, if it isn't forced, it should last a lifetime.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. A boiler or furnace of proper capacity would last a lifetime?

Mr. WALKER. Yes.

Mr. MONTGOMERY. How rapidly, in your experience, can a furnace be burned out if it is being driven over capacity?

Mr. WALKER. Well, that is hard to say. I would say if you kept a furnace at a red heat you could burn it out in a year or so, if you just forced it that hard. That isn't normal, and people don't nor

124491-39-pt. 8-10