gathering up the mothers of these young men, and secondly the unmarried widows, to see that they are taken to Europe once with the object stated in the bill.

This movement has been talked about for 10 years and I now ask you gentlemen to dispose of it for all time. If the women described are ever to go as the guests of the Government, if they are ever to go at all, now is the time for them to go. Many who might have been included died in the last year. In my own congressional district, in the county where I live, six have gone during that period.

It is not the fault of anyone that this measure has not received the attention of the House. It once received the attention of this committee and received it promptly. Why the House did not vote upon it I do not know. I only wish to assure you this, Mr. Chairman, that if you report this bill I will summon others to assist me in seeing that the House casts a vote on it. Of course, if you do not report it, in my judgment, that will be the end of it for this term. I should like to see this bill voted on. If the House sees fit to pass it, I have the assurance that the Senate will pass it. A number of these women live in Westchester, my home. We had almost a regiment of the celebrated Twenty-eighth Division in my congressional district, and there are a great many women who should have this opportunity to go abroad for the purpose stated. I want to, however, disclaim any personal ambition whatsoever in this measure.

If Judge Payne's Red Cross will undertake this duty, you will all understand that it will be well performed, unselfishly done. What the expense of it will be I do not know. I have never asked Some of you men who have served here a great many years may know, but permit me to say I am not a man of extravagance. However, I would not think of drawing a line on a measure of this kind I would like these women to be separated from all the other women in America to be made the guests of this Government. I know of n class of society in the United States which has ever been made the guests of the Government. I would like them to have this great distinction. Some of them can not go. Some of them do not know where the ocean is. Some of them would not know a ship if they sa it. First it would have to be learned from them whether or not they would like to go, but I would like to have all of them go. I am told that the cemeteries are in good condition and the marble crosses are now erected. Now is the time for them to go.

You will notice from the terms of the bill that three years is given to carry them across. The Government has plenty of ships in which to carry them. If you turn this over to Judge Payne, he can negotiate with the Shipping Board. Why not haul these women on the Leviathan, the President Wilson, the President Harrison, some of these big ships and take them first class and as they deserve. I have some assurance that there is a Red Cross in France that will be delighted to take care of them when they arrive.

Another bill provided that they should be taken under the direction of the War Department. I have no objection to that, except this that I believe all these missions of mercy, and this is one of them, can be better attended to by keeping the soldiery out of it. These people are not to be taken on a parade. If this is to be a junket, I withdr this bill at once. There are no standards to be thrown into the air telling who these people are or their standing at home with us. The

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object of it is this and this only, to enable this Government to take hese women to these places where their children are buried, and hey should have that opportunity at once. It is only asked for once. The period to be covered is three years in which to take them. They are to be taken first class in every way. The railroads are to be asked to lower their rates. If they can haul one of the queens of a foreign country around for a dollar, they can haul some of these women for A similar sum. Therefore, we had written in this bill, after consultation, a provision that would authorize the Interstate Commerce Comnission to permit railroads to haul these women to the ships. Amerca can well afford to take them.

I want to close with this statement. This movement, with its attending objects and its evidences of gratitude, will do more to pronote the peace of our country and the peace of the world than marchng armies. This pilgrimage will also carry with it the evidences of sorrow and waste created by war, battleships and armaments. people in Europe and elsewhere will know that Americans do not forget.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you present the witness?

The

Mr. BUTLER. Yes, I would like to present Judge Payne. Most of you know who he is, the president of the Red Cross.

Mr. MCSWAIN. Referring to the request of the distinguished gentleman from Pennsylvania that his remarks be not taken down and published, I think that there is one at least that should be taken down and printed, and I heartily concur in it, and that is this, that such a movement as this is better for the peace of the nation and of the world than battleships. I think that ought to be taken down. The CHAIRMAN. I think it all ought to go in the record.

Mr. BUTLER. I asked Mr. Frank James whether somebody else might not introduce this bill. I do not want any publicity or notoriety of any kind.

Mr. CHAPMAN. We would like to have the benefit of what you have said in the record.

Mr. MCSWAIN. It all ought to be in the record.

Mr. BUTLER. This hearing is bound to be quite informal. I will ask Mr. Payne to say to us what the Red Cross will be able to do to carry out and enforce the provisions of this bill in the event it is passed. Mr. Chairman, will you allow Mr. Payne to make a general statement?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN BARTON PAYNE, CHAIRMAN OF THE CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE AMERICAN NATIONAL RED CROSS, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. PAYNE. The American Red Cross has no opinions about this subject. The American Red Cross serves. It does not advocate. I have read this bill. Congressman Butler came to see me about it before the bill was prepared, discussed the subject quite fully with me as to the facilities and willingness of the American Red Cross to undertake this task if it should be imposed upon it by Congress. I explained at length to him our facilities and expressed the willingness of the Red Cross to undertake the work.

Before I state the substance of what I said to him about facilities I would like to suggest that in section 3 of the bill after the words "Secretary of War" in line 3 there be inserted this: "Under regulations to be prescribed by the President of the United States."

If the bill should become a law, the first thing would be to ascertain the persons who are entitled to come within its provisions and the addresses of such persons. There is an organization in the War Department entitled "Graves registration service, cemeterial division," where the names may be found. In order to ascertain who are entitled to the provisions of the bill, it would first be necessary for the Red Cross in its service which devotes itself to the ex-service man to list all of these persons and to advise who is entitled to make this trip. That would involve no expense. We do that as a part of our general Red Cross service. It would not involve any serious difficulty because we have kept in touch with the general subject as to the personnel in connection with our work.

The American Red Cross, as perhaps you all well know, has 3,500 chapters, one in each community in the United States. The chapters are always composed of people of the first water in their devotion to service. Through these chapters with the assistance of the local county papers, we will be able to find all of these people and to deter mine whether they are entitled to come within the provisions of the bill. The Red Cross maintains a service in connection with both the Army and the Navy. Representing the Army is Captain Perry, whose title is liaison officer, and he is assigned to the Red Cross by the War Department. We have his active assistance.

For the Navy we have Lieutenant Commander Agnew who performs the same service.

Congressman Butler was anxious to know how the work involved in going with these mothers and widows would be taken care of. I explained that there was in France an organization much like our own, the French Red Cross. Now, perhaps, I could best give you a picture by telling you what the Red Cross did in connection with the recent expedition of the American Legion.

We were asked by the American Legion to provide facilities in France so that there would be places where the men could be taken care of in case of necessity, with doctors, nurses, attendants, etc. I at once wrote to the French Red Cross and they expressed ther gratification to assist in the work. There were about 400 French volunteers, mostly women, who had seen service. The only people involved were 5 trained nurses; 3 doctors, and 5 interpreters. We had 5 other trained nurses, 3 American and 2 British. We sent from headquarters Mr. Swift, who is assistant to the vice chairman, Colonel Bicknell, and he had general charge of the work in France. The entire expense to the Red Cross was $2,600. That included Mr. Swift's traveling expenses and all of the other expenses involved. Now as to the practical work we established four principal stations in Paris. One of them had 25 beds with an adequate supply of nurses and doctors. There the men were free to go and stay as much as they liked, and if there was an indisposition, they could be taken care of there. It was a sort of hospital.

We also established two stations at the ports of landing Cherbourg and La Havre. There were five at the cemeteries and three at the railroad stations. I said five at the cemeteries. There are six ceme

teries in France for the American dead, but the one very close to Paris, Sureenes, was taken care of by the stations in Paris, so that we had an adequate service wherever it was necessary.

There were about 20,000 men who went over. During the parade we had 20 stations along the line of march. At all times we had three ambulances properly equipped in Paris with an adequate supply of beds and cots. These were supplied without expense by the military governor of Paris. That I think covers the general picture of what was done at that expedition.

Now, so far as supplying adequate attendants, you can see how easy it is when I tell you that during the World War the Red Cross, the American Red Cross, had 9,000 people serving with the Army. In addition to that, there were 20,000 Red Cross nurses who were taken into the Army. I don't know how to express that, but they served directly under the Army, and not under the Red Cross. Serving directly under the Red Cross were 600 nurses. That, of course, you will see provides a very large personnel of people who are familiar with the country and can speak the French language, many of them, of course, and can supply the necessary information.

It

There is an organization entitled the Women's Overseas League composed of nonprofessional women who served during the war. is entirely independent of the Red Cross, but the affiliations are very close. They would be delighted, I am sure, to render any service possible. They have 40 chapters in the country, and about a hundred members living in Washington, and I am told we had accurate information that they have a membership of 2,800.

The bill should also provide for passports without expense to be issued to all of these ladies entitled to the provisions of the bill, and I am sure, at least I feel sure, that the French visas would be given without cost.

I think I need only add that we are very glad indeed to place all the facilities at the disposal of the Congress.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions the members would like to ask Judge Payne?

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. I wonder, Judge Payne, in considering the subject whether you had studied the very careful analysis of this whole matter that was made about three years ago by the Quartermaster General's Department of the Army?

Mr. PAYNE. I have not.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. The discussion as to the probable surviving numbers and as to all the elements, of course, and all the machinery that will be required to accomplish it?

Mr. PAYNE. I have not read it.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Of course, in case we pass this bill, that would be a very useful study for you to take advantage of.

Mr. PAYNE. I am sure of it.

Mr. BUTLER. May I ask, Mr. Secretary, whether or not that was the number of those who would like to be transported?

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. I was just looking at it, Mr. Butler. According to this report dated May 3, 1924, by a very careful review of the whole subject and making some mathematical assumptions that they had to make to arrive at the final conclusion at that time, of the 30,461 bodies. interred in cemeteries on the other side that at that time the probabilities were that there were about 12,500 mothers then surviving.

Mr. BUTLER. Four years ago.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. BUTLER. Twenty per cent of them are gone.

Mr. HOFFMAN. The estimates are based on 2,600 mothers. Mr. WRIGHT. That bill did not provide for unmarried widows, however.

Mr. HOFFMAN. They made their estimate, the estimated cost $13,292,776, but that included a rather extensive personnel army, personnel both at home and abroad.

Mr. WAINWRIGHT. That provided for the organization to ship them over. I have a copy of that bill right here.

Mr. BUTLER. Mr. Chairman, I suggest that that report signed by Major General Harbord, of the graves registration service, dated May 3, 1924, be inserted in the record of this hearing.

The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objection, it will be done. (The report is as follows:)

TO AUTHORIZE MOTHERS OF DECEASED WORLD WAR VETERANS BURIED IN EUROPE TO VISIT THE GRAVES

Hon. JOHN C. MCKENZIE,

WAR DEPARTMENT, Washington, May 3, 1924.

Acting Chairman House Committee on Military Affairs,

House of Representatives.

MY DEAR MR. MCKENZIE: In compliance with the request contained in your letter dated March 24, 1924, relative to a study of H. R. 4109, I am pleased to inform you that I have had the study made, which I take pleasure in inclosing herewith.

Maj. R. P. Harbold, Quartermaster Corps, is designated as the War Depart ment representative to appear before your committee in any further hearings on this bill.

Sincerely yours,

J. L. HINES, Acting Secretary of War.

A STUDY OF H. R. 4109

A bill to authorize mothers of deceased World War veterans buried in Europe to visit the graves of their sons at the expense of the United States. I. General.

II. Number of mothers to be transported.

III. Time of year and transportation rate per month.

IV. Ocean transportation.

V. Overhead required.

VI. Cost of transportation, subsistence, etc., including overhead.
VII. Summary and conclusions.

I. GENERAL

1. The purpose of this study is to make a critical analysis of the above subject with a view of informing the Committee on Military Affairs, House of Representatives, regarding all phases. It is not intended as the opinion of the War Department on the merits of the bill, that having been expressed in a letter to the chairman dated January 28, 1924.

2. The bill states "that in order to give every mother of a member of a military or naval force of the United States who died in line of duty during the World War and whose body is buried in Europe an opportunity to visit the grave of her son the Secretary of War is authorized and directed to arrange, as soon as practicable after the passage of this act, tours from the United States