ARMY TRANSPORT RETIREMENT

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS, Monday, March 5, 1928.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. W. Frank James presiding.

Mr. JAMES. The committee will be in order. This hearing is in reference to providing retirement for licensed officers of the United States Army Transport Service, covering the provisions contained in H. R. 436, introduced December 5, 1927, by Mrs. Kahn; H. R. 5634, introduced December 5, 1927, by Mr. Morin; H. R. 9832, introduced January 23, 1928, by Mr. Kindred; and H. R. 10478, introduced February 3, 1928, by Mrs. Kahn.

We will hear first this morning Colonel Seaman.

STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. A. O. SEAMAN, QUARTERMASTER CORPS, UNITED STATES ARMY, ASSISTANT GENERAL SUPERINTENDENT ARMY TRANSPORT SERVICE, BROOKLYN, N. Y.

Colonel SEAMAN. Mr. Chairman, the two bills on this subject that I am familiar with were introduced, one by Mr. Morin and one by Mrs. Kahn.

Mr. JAMES. There are two bills that have been introduced by Mrs. Kahn H. R. 10478, which is worded in exactly the way in which the Secretary of War recommended to us in his letter of March 3 of last year, and H. R. 436, introduced by Mrs. Kahn on December 5, 1927, which is a little bit different from that which the Secretary of War recommended.

Then, in addition to that, there is H. R. 9832, introduced by Mr. Kindred.

Mr. WURZBACH. Then H. R. 10478 will be made the basis of this hearing?

Mr. JAMES. It will be, because that is the wording which the Secretary of War approved in a letter sent to us last year. He practically said he would approve the bill in that form. He submitted that language to us instead of language in several bills that were before us last year, on which we had a hearing.

Colonel SEAMAN. Referring to the licensed officers of the Army Transport Service, my desire is to bring to the attention of this committee the responsibilities of those officers, the character and class of their work, and the fact that commercial concerns, such as the Mallory Line, which is a part of the Southern Pacific Co., the Clyde Line, the International Mercantile Marine, and the different railroad companies operating steamships, tugs, ferries, and lighters all have a retirement feature for their licensed officers.

The idea is to put the officers of the Army Transport Service on the same basis, so far as retirement is concerned, as the members of the Coast Guard and the Lighthouse Service, who now have the privilege of retirement after reaching the age of 65.

Mr. JAMES. Last year, when we had a hearing on February 17 on this same subject, Mr. Wainwright, in questioning Colonel Hunter, who had just said that the Coast Guard Service and the Lighthouse Service men get three-fourths pay on retirement, said:

That is very important. Why did you not tell us that? You must assume we know all those things, because those things come to us. The Lighthouse Service and the Coast Guard Service are now on retired status?

Colonel HUNTER. Yes.

And then Mr. Hill, of Alabama, a little later said:

And send therewith the provisions in regard to the officers of the Coast Guard taken from the law, as you have stated, and not only that, but I would like to know what provisions the commercial lines make for retirement.

Will you touch on that matter?

Colonel SEAMAN. In reference to the commercial lines?
Mr. JAMES. Yes.

Colonel SEAMAN. I have investigated very carefully during the past year the question of retirement in the commercial lines. There are three very good examples that I might bring to your attention, particularly in connection with the Southern Pacific Co. They control the Mallory Line of steamships, as well as their own tugs, ferries, and other seagoing vessels. They have a retirement feature, whereby, at the age of 64, after a certain number of years' service, which runs between 30 and 35 years, depending upon whether they are on ferries, on tugs, or on other seagoing vessels, they retire their men on three-quarters pay. The Pennsylvania Railroad Co., with their seagoing vessels; the Standard Oil Co., with their seagoing vessels, as well as tugs, have similar retirement features. The Standard Oil Co. has two retirement features, one for licensed officers on their seagoing vessels, such as their tankers and other ships of that sort, where they retire them at 60 years on three-quarters pay.

Mr. JAMES. Do they require a man to serve any specific number of years in order to retire at 60 years of age?

Colonel SEAMAN. They must have served 25 years in the service of the company and be 60 years of age.

I have also gone further than that, and have made an investigation of conditions in regard to retirement in the foreign lines. I had a long talk the other day with the manager of the French Line. They compel the retirement of their men at 59 years of age. But those men who are retired at that age are subject to call at any moment; they can be required to come back and stay in the service for six years. In other words, a man in the service of the French Line could not go on the outside and take another position because his service would be uncertain on account of the fact that he would be subject to call by the French Line at a moment's notice for six years after his retirement.

Mr. JAMES. How many years of service does he have to have? Colonel SEAMAN. They have no particular years of service. Their men come up from the bottom. They are given their schooling, go through the various schools, just the same as our Coast Guard people do and the same as our lighthouse people do.

That is also one point I wanted to bring to your attention. All of our licensed officers are men who have gone through schools and received their education and gotten their experience, some of them after a great many years of hard work, and a great many of them have gone before the mast. Not all of them have had the advantage of the schools that the others have gone through. But they must be just as well versed in the use of up-to-date equipment as a naval afficer or anyone else in that line of work must be.

A very good comparison, so far as the responsibility of our licensed officers is concerned can be found in the case of the American Merchant Line, which took over three of the present Hog Island class B ships, and is now running them as the American Banker, the American Trader, and three other vessels. They are single-cabin ships; they cut out their second class and have reduced their first class to 100, and they carry no troops.

The responsibility that our navigators and other licensed officers have over them is the addition of a thousand or so extra souls aboard ship that they have to look after, so that to-day the question of that responsibility is a very great one.

The British lines, I have found, are manned mostly with reservists, either of the navy or the army reserves, and they come under the retirement law, under their reserve commissions.

What the German lines are doing now I do not know. I have been unable to get in touch with any of the German lines in order to get that information.

Mr. JAMES. What can you tell us about the Lighthouse Service and the Coast Guard?

Colonel SEAMAN. The Lighthouse Service has a regular retirement feature in connection with the law governing it. I can not give you the exact information about that service, but I am sure Colonel Sheen has the information in reference to the Lighthouse Service.

Mr. GLYNN. Have you figured out what would be the additional expense on account of the passage of this bill?

Colonel SEAMAN. General Pope has those figures.

Mr. WURZBACH. You were speaking about the retirement pay given to licensed officers who are with the Southern Pacific Railroad Co. and the Pennsylvania Railroad Co. Is it not a fact that they also have retirement pay for other employees, or all their employees? Colonel SEAMAN. Yes; they have retirement for all of their railroad men and everybody else connected with the railroad.

Mr. WURZBACH. They are much more liberal than the Federal Government is?

Colonel SEAMAN. Very much more liberal. They go down in their retirement features; that is, on the Southern Pacific and the Pennsylvania Railroad, as far down the line as the flagman who stands at the crossing and holds up the "Stop" sign. He gets retirement pay.

Mr. WURZBACH. I was wondering whether your statement would not be as strong an argument in favor of increased retirement features for Government employees of every kind as it would be in favor of this proposed legislation.

Colonel SEAMAN. I do not think so, for this reason, and that is the fact that the smaller and lesser positions on our transports-I am

only speaking about transports-are an ever-changing proposition. The only people who stick by us regularly for any length of time are the licensed officers. We seldom have enough funds to keep our crews alive when the ship is in port. It takes all of our funds to pay from personnel the 130 employees while at sea and we can not operate with reduced funds ashore. You will find that the lesser employees change practically yearly.

Mr. WURZBACH. This bill is limited only to officers of the transport service?

Colonel SEAMAN. To licensed officers.

Mr. WURZBACH. You have rank the same as other officers in the Military Establishment?

Colonel SEAMAN. No; it is not military rank in any way whatsoever. It is the same rank, if you want to use that word, that they have in the merchant line. We have our masters, our first, second, and third, and fourth officers. Then we have our chief engineer, and our first, second, third, and fourth engineers, our marine superintendents, our superintending engineers. Those are all licensed officers.

Mr. WURZBACH. How does their pay compare with the pay of officers in the naval service for similar work and with similar responsi bility?

Colonel SEAMAN. Of course, in the Navy the pay is above the amount that we pay these officers.

Mr. WURZBACH. How does their pay compare with the pay of these licensed officers of the transport service?

Colonel SEAMAN. Of course, a captain in the Navy gets the same pay as a colonel in the Army. The Navy took over two boats, the Chateau-Theirry and the Argonne. The Chateau-Theirry is one of the Hog Island boats. They had a captain in the Navy commanding that boat for three years-Captain Enochs. He was one of the old captains in the Navy, and he drew his pay as a captain in the Navy, which is similar to the pay of a colonel in the Army. In other words, his pay was $6,000, whereas the master of a vessel does not get $6,000 a year; he gets $4,000. That is in the transport service. Mr. WURZBACH. You think that his responsibilities and qualifications can be compared with those of officers in the Navy who get $6,000?

Colonel SEAMAN. Yes; I think so, as far as his duties are concerned, except as to the matter of gunnery and things of that kind which the naval officer must get when he goes through the Naval Academy. But as far as navigation is concerned, and the care of the ship, the responsibilities are just the same as they are in the case of a captain of a similar ship in the Navy.

Mr. WURZBACH. But those officers in the transport service are not receiving equal pay? What do they get? Do they get any retirement pay now?

Colonel SEAMAN. They are under the civil service now. For example, there was a captain, Captain Hall, retired the other day, who was one of the oldest men in the service.

I might say also that a captain in the Navy gets, in addition to his pay, an allowance of $1,200 a year, which makes his total pay $7,200 instead of $6,000.