General CHEATHAM. We have made a saving at every place except Fort Wadsworth, N. Y.

Mr. JAMES. I thought you told the Appropriations Committee you made a saving there of about $40,000?

General CHEATHAM. No, sir; I am asking for $40,000 to be put there.

Mr. JAMES. Oh, that is it? You want to use some money you saved at other places, at Wadsworth?

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir; that is the way. We have made little savings at Devins, Lewis, and various other places, and we have asked that $40,000 of this saving be reappropriated to build a full battalion barracks at Fort Wadsworth. The $120,000 saved at Fort Bragg we have asked to be reappropriated for an additional barrack at that post.

Mr. JAMES. It does not need to be reappropriated, because you notice we have $186,000, and the reason that was put in, was to add that on to your $114,000.

General CHEATHAM. We felt it did not have to be reappropriated at all, but the Judge Advocate General forced us to make the application. I felt in your authorization you gave us $360,000 for the barracks at Fort Bragg and we only spent $240,000 for one barracks, and I thought we could spend the other $120,000 for any other barracks already authorized at that post. I can see no reason why we should not be able to do that; but, in view of the language of the law, which says that any saving must be subject to reappropriation for construction heretofore authorized, in order to be perfectly safe and free and fair with Congress, we reported that and asked that it be reappropriated.

Mr. JAMES. That would be a different proposition, if you were going to take the saving made at Bragg and use it at some other place; but not where you are going to use the money at Bragg. That would simply apply on the next barracks.

General CHEATHAM. That is my construction.

Mr. JAMES. For instance, when General Hull came to see me about the matter, he did not tell me the facts the way I found them when I got out to Camp Lewis. He told me about the saving of $180,000 out there and I thought what you were trying to do was to contract for a $600,000 building when you only had $180,000.

General CHEATHAM. No, sir.

Mr. JAMES. I said, of course, that could not be done. But, when I got out there, I found the way they were putting up buildings there, instead of having one big building to cost $600,000, they were going to have three.

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. JAMES. And the $180,000 would take care of one of the three units. I told him to telegraph to Washington and to state, in my opinion, they could use the $180,000 for a building that would cost $180,000; but they could not use the $180,000 and contract for a building to cost $600,000.

General CHEATHAM. We had no contemplation of that.
Mr. JAMES. And that was done.

General CHEATHAM. The same thing applies at Bragg right now. Mr. JAMES. And at Bragg, you do not need to have any reappropriation. If you are going to use the saving at Bragg for Schofield

Barracks, of course you would; but, where you are going to use it there, we did not say you had to use it on a certain barracks but we said "for a barracks," and all you save can be added on for the next building, and they told me when I was down at Bragg that this $186,000 plus your saving of $114,000 would put up another building, and that was the reason I put in a bill.

General CHEATHAM. You have given us in the deficiency bill $310,000, I believe is the correct amount, which, with the saving of $120,000, makes $430,000 that is available to us now for construction of barracks at Fort Bragg this minute. We advertised yesterday and sent out plans covering two battalion barracks, to cost within the $430,000 limit. That is what we are doing now. That included the $120,000 saving, and makes it possible for us to build two complete barracks.

Mr. JAMES. Then you do not need to take it to the Appropriations Committee or anybody else.

General CHEATHAM. We can go right ahead on it.

Mr. JAMES. Now at Wadsworth, in view of the fact you need $40,000 more, it may be you will need this amount to be increased. General CHEATHAM. May I explain that? At Wadsworth, you gave us $285,000. Your authorization was for the construction of a barracks. Our estimate was based upon 349 men. We attempted to build an infantry barracks for four companies a four-company battalion barracks for 399 men to meet the change in tables of organization. We could not do it within the $285,000. You said "barracks"; but you did not say how many, or for how many men. We have awarded a very fair contract, a very reasonable contract, for a barracks for three of those companies, with a right to extend it a company if funds should be available for that purpose. We have asked you to give us $40,000 of our small savings to add to the $285,000, which will give us $325,000 total for that barracks. You had previously authorized $360,000 for the same purpose at other places.

Mr. JAMES. What will this $250,000 do in this bill?

General CHEATHAM. That new $250,000?

Mr. JAMES. Yes-what will that do?

General CHEATHAM. It will build a headquarters barracks there; that is, three companies instead of four.

Mr. JAMES. Then, in order to take care of Fort Wadsworth, you need the Government to advance this $250,000 to $290,000?

General CHEATHAM. That would be the effect of it, unless you are simply willing to reappropriate some of the money which we have saved.

Mr. JAMES. But you will need that money at these same places, will you not?

General CHEATHAM. It can be used, yes, sir; it is the same thing. Mr. JAMES. Because you are not through. It would be a different proposition if you were through at Bragg and had saved $100,000; then that money could be used some place else; but where you have still a seven or eight million dollar program, I do not think that needs to be done.

General CHEATHAM. There is no final saving anywhere, Mr. James. Mr. JAMES. No.

General CHEATHAM. What we would like would be to get this $40,000 for Wadsworth, as soon as possible, for the reason we have very good contract there now and we could take advantage of it and build for this fourth company. That is our pressing need.

Mr. JAMES. I suggest you have a bill sent up for $40,000, the same as where you needed the $80,000 to complete Camp Humphreys. General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. JAMES. What we did at Humphreys-they needed $80,000 and a bill was introduced to take care of that, and now it is on the calendar.

General CHEATHAM. May I send this right up, then?

Mr. JAMES. If you are $40,000 short for that particular building, what you want is a bill for $40,000. That should be sent to the Budget and they can send up a supplemental estimate, to take effect at once.

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. JAMES. You notice we left off the clause about reappropriating,

etc.

General CHEATHAM. I had not noticed that.

Mr. JAMES. We left that off, because when I read your testimony before the Appropriations Committee, where apparently you said you could ignore this committee and go to them, we decided to fix it so that could not be done any more.

General CHEATHAM. I think you either misunderstood, or I did not make myself clear. I have checked up on that hearing and have looked up the previous hearing, and I got the very distinct understanding that so long as you had authorized any of these buildings, the savings could be reappropriated for any building which had been authorized. That is my understanding; I have never had any other. Mr. JAMES. But we meant where you had a saving. For instance, say down at Benning you had a saving of $200,000-when you had a saving of $200,000 at Benning, what we supposed you would do would be to come before this committee and say you had a saving of $200,000 and wanted to use that for some place else, and we would pass on it; but I read in the conversation between you and Mr. Barbour, when you made a saving of that kind, you could ignore this committee and go to them and they could take care of you. For instance, this is at page 324 of the hearings on the appropriation bill:

Mr. BARBOUR. Would you have to go to the Committee on Military Affairs for further authorization, or could you not come direct to the Committee on Appropriations?

General CHEATHAM. I should say we would come to you, under the language of the authorization act, which says:

"That any unexpended balances or combined unexpended balances of any of the above amounts shall be available interchangeably for reappropriation on any of the hospitals, barracks, or noncommissioned officers' quarters herein authorized."

Mr. BARBOUR. You could use it on any of the projects included in that particular authorization act, but you could not go outisde of the authorized projects? General CHEATHAM. No, sir. For instance, if we save at Fort Benning, we can either use that for other construction at Fort Benning or at Fort Bragg, or at any other place where construction has already been authorized provided the money is reapproriated.

Mr. BARBOUR. You can come back to us and say, "We have saved so much money at Fort Benning and would like to use it at Schofield Barracks," or at some other place where construction has been authorized?

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

General CHEATHAM. Well, sir, I felt your language was so clear that you meant just what the act said, that it could be reappropriated for any project which this committee had authorized. We never, at any time, intended or expected to try and use funds for any purpose which the Military Affairs Committee had not specifically authorized. Now I am sorry if you have read into my hearing there any intent to the contrary; because I had no such thought.

Mr. JAMES. You notice Mr. Barbour said "you could come to us." That means to come to them and not to this committee.

General CHEATHAM. I did not understand the word "reappropriated" meant anything but the reappropriation of the money for an authorized project. Mr. James, on the floor of the House, made a statement in reporting the bill out of the committee, as contained in Report No. 616, Sixty-ninth Congress, first session, at which time it appeared that the proviso contained the word "expenditure." That was the way it was originally enacted and you changed it to the word appropriation." However, if I am wrong, I am sorry; I had no intent to go beyond this committee. That is the furthest from my mind.

Mr. JAMES. That was changed because that was about the first bill we had up and we were going to suspend the rules and needed a two-thirds vote and, at the last minute, we were given to understand if we did not make that change we were going to get licked and, of course, we changed it. We did not want to.

Mr. MCSWAIN. As I understand it now, General, the estimate brought in here for these projected buildings is just a rough outline estimate?

General CHEATHAM. We call it an approximate estimate.

Mr. MCSWAIN. An approximate estimate, based on previous experience?

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCSWAIN. Now, before you let the contract, there will be exact and definite plans drawn in detail?

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCSWAIN. And specifications prepared and, on those, your office will estimate what you think it ought to be built for?

General CHEATHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. MCSWAIN. Now, then, do you tell the contractors your estimate?

General CHEATHAM. No, sir.

Mr. MCSWAIN. That is absolutely confidential?

General CHEATHAM. Yes; our estimate is.

Mr. MCSWAIN. Then would it be very much trouble for you to take the last contracts that have been executed through your office, for any amount in excess of $100,000, and tabulate your estimates of what the buildings should cost and opposite it the amount that was awarded in the contract; then, third, the actual final cost-for purposes of illustration?

General CHEATHAM. I think we can give you that, sir.

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