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Mr. MRCRACKEN. I believe that would be of real, or have a more realistic end result, because we would then be getting first at misuse; and second, we would then be tightening up our transportation of firearms into a State where under some one varying requirement from State to State, that State's law would not be violated; and third, by bringing in this so-called "heavy ordnance" into the taxing provisions of the National Firearms Act.

Mr. BROOKS. In other words, the purpose and objective of the National Firearms Act and the Federal Arms Control Act supplemented by these bills presented by Congressmen Sikes, Dingell, and Horton would have the effect of reducing the crime incidence that are occurring in our country today.

Mr. MCCRACKEN. No, sir; I do not say that they are going to have that effect. I say this: I believe they are a more effective means of tightening up the regulation first of all in this heavy ordnance.

Mr. BROOKS. In other words, you felt that the National Firearms helped in achieving that purpose?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. If it is enforced; yes.

Mr. BROOKS. And the Federal Arms Control Act?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Yes; if it is enforced.

Mr. BROOKS. Which seeks to regulate the purchase and use of firearms and also the bill of Congressmen King and Horton would as you mentioned in your statement be of the greatest aid in achieving the purpose we all seek and that is the reduction of crime?

Mr. McCRACKEN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Thank you.

Chairman CELLER. Mr. MacGregor?

Mr. MACGREGOR. No questions.

Mr. McCLORY. Mr. McCracken, this subject of skeet shooting and trap shooting is very intriguing. Only dedicated gunners engage in this, is that not correct?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Yes, sir, I have one very close one that I shoot with all the time in Dallas who is 14 years old, little Chuck Mayhew, former national champion at Rochester this past year.

Mr. McCLORY. As I see this bill on page 14 it would be unlawful for a licensed dealer, manufacturer or anyone else to sell or deliver any gun to anyone under 18 years of age and any firearm, excluding shotguns and rifles, to a person under 21 years of age.

What does your organization feel about that, about the ownership and possession and use of firearms by younger people?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Well, as I set out here I believe it is unduly restrictive and harsh as a national measure. I think if it becomes a real problem here I think the answer lies in parental consent or consent of parent or guardian, but I believe it is not for this national legislation.

Mr. McCLORY. Now, do you have a particular age in mind or do you think it is possible to arrive at any specific age?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. I don't know that it is. That is why I use the term youthful citizens. I am not certain that an arbitrary age of 14, 15, 16, 18, 20, or 21 can be decided upon with any reasonable degree of accuracy.

Mr. McCLOY. Do these young people who use these rifles, firearms that are used in skeet and trap shooting, do they individually make

the selection and do they have the know-how to decide what is best for them and have the wherewithal to acquire this firearm for their own particular use?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. The answer there is yes. As far as their ability to select, it is extremely acute. They know exactly what they want and they became extremely proficient with it I might add.

Of course, as to the wherewithal, that will vary from family to family. I personally know of some who work extra all the time when they are in high school and so forth so that they will have the privilege and pride in themselves of being able to say they "bought it" themselves.

Mr. McCLORY. But actually, except for the manner in which this legislation might affect young people it does not seem to me that if it is fairly administered that it would interfere in any way with any of your members or anyone interested in the sport in acquiring and having the possession and using the firearms that are used for trap shooting or skeet shooting.

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Well, Mr. McClory, let me say I passed up there several copies of the "Gun Exchange" and the "Trap House" and if you will read some of the descriptions of the firearms listed there you will find that, first of all, I might explain that two of the most popularly used good tournament guns have been discontinued by the manufacturer; Remington and Winchester. First is the model 12 Winchester and second is the model 58 Remington. These guns are extremely fine high grade tournament guns when they are tuned up. As well you will find the very rare single barrel and double barrel Ithaca trap guns and over and under Browning guns with multibarrels and the Remington 32 which was discontinued 30 years ago. These guns are hard to find.

Mr. McCLORY. Now actually, of course, I do not see that this proposed law affects an individual trading or selling shotguns or rifles. Mr. MCCRACKEN. I have this in mind, Mr. McClory, if you in your home State of Illinois were to advertise an extremely well tuned model 42-410 gauge shotgun and describe its ventilated rib, compensator, with a homemade tube choke made from another choke and you want X dollars and I have been scouring the country for one of these. I would drop you a letter and say send it down and let me see if it works. That would be prohibited under this bill here.

Mr. McCLORY. I do not see why. If the person that you were going to acquire such a firearm from was a dealer, a person who was in the business, or if you were in the business and wanted to acquire such a firearm then, of course, you would be licensed and would be a dealer. But if you were an individual and you wanted to sell a shotgun or rifle or wanted to buy such a firearm there is nothing here to prevent or affect that individual transaction.

Mr. MCCRACKEN. You couldn't ship it to me in Texas under section 922(a)1. That is prohibited. That would be a mail order acquisition of a firearm when I ordered it from you in Illinois as an individual shooter in Illinois and you boxed it up and insured it and shipped it to me at Dallas and I sent you back the money, we would both be in violation of the law.

Chairman CELLER. Will you yield at that point?

Mr. McCLORY. Yes.

Chairman CELLER. Are you saying that in Texas you can't get any gun you want?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. In a great many instances, Mr. Celler, I would like for Miss Foxworthy to give you some examples of some of the guns that cannot be gotten by some of the trapshooters anywhere except perhaps on the death of a man who has been a collector.

Chairman CELLER. Where do the people in Texas get guns for trapshooting? It is true, is it not, that most of the guns are gotten in Texas? Mr. MCCRACKEN. By far and away the larger portion of them are purchased as new guns, locally. That would not be prohibited under this act, but there are a great number of people, Mr. Chairman, that have been in the shooting of trap and skeet for 25, 30, and 40 years and they have themselves adjusted to a particular type of gun and if that gun were to be stolen they would have to have an awful lot of money to travel the United States to find one.

Chairman CELLER. On this question of juniors having guns, juniors as you mentioned before, the 14 year olds-are they in possession of those guns any time they wish to have possession of them? Do they have them in their homes, have them in their bedrooms and sitting rooms?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Oh, no, I would not say that, but I would say in nodding affirmatively to your questions that most of the guns are kept in gun lockers under lock and key and travel with them to tournaments. Chairman CELLER. But they could take them home with them? Mr. MCCRACKEN. Oh, yes, they do frequently.

Mr. McCLORY. I think that is all I have. I am just anxious to determine what particular parts of the bill are most offensive to you or your organization. I think I know and think we should consider in revising the bills here one that would protect your buying firearms and the same time arrive at the broad objectives we are trying to achieve. It seems to me your real objections are rather few. You have general objection to the legislation but the specific impact this legislation would have on you and your members is small and perhaps could be remedied in the final bill.

Chairman CELLER. Mr. Biester?

Mr. BIESTER. I have only a few questions, Mr. Chairman.

Do you ascribe any meaning to the word "regulated" in the amendment?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Where do you have reference to?

Mr. BIESTER. "Well regulated."

Mr. MCCRACKEN. You mean in the second amendment?
Mr. BIESTER. Yes.

Mr. MCCRACKEN. I think the phrase first is attributed, I believe, to Mr. Hamilton of New York in writing the Federalist Papers, particularly Federalist Paper No. 29. The amendment had its origin in this country in the Virginia Declaration of Rights and that ended very abruptly with the right of the people to own and bear arms should not be infringed upon.

It found its way through Patrick Henry's Convention. But I think the definition of the regulations is very well pointed out in Mr. Hamilton's Federalist Paper No. 29 dealing with the subject. He takes the position that there is nothing short, if you would like for me, I will read it to you and it says:

Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped.

They are Mr. Hamilton's words. He said

In order not to see that this not be neglected, it should be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

Now, he is talking about the conception of the right to bear arms being a basic, fundamental right as once described by Blackstone in his commentaries subsequent to Magna-Charta. But he says that the militia must be looked at every now and then so we will get everybody together and see that everybody still has their Kentucky rifle and their powder horn and 20 shot and so forth.

Mr. BIESTER. So his term "well regulated" meant a counting of noses twice a year, right?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. I believe that is exactly what history has said repeatedly.

Mr. BIESTER. So far as juveniles and handguns, do you believe juveniles under the age of 15 or 14 should own pistols and carry them home with them?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. Mr. Biester, I am a firm believer in local law such as we have in Texas that you should not carry a concealed handgun on or about your person unless you are traveling to or from or you could conceivably be carrying large sums of money and have some information about your safety. But I think the acquisition problem is best vested in some sort of an arrangement on a State level for parental or guardian consent as far as ownership. But once owned and acquired, even a young 14- or 15-year-old who aspires to be a national pistol champion I think his carrying the gun should be subjected to severe regulations as we have in nearly all States concerning the carrying of concealed weapons whether he be a junior or an adult.

Mr. BIESTER. I have been looking at the advertisements in the Gun Exchange and it seems to me first of all that there are perhaps 5 or 6 on the page I am looking at which involve individual owners who are apparently disposing of property in single instances and there are a number of dealers. There are two ads, however, which perplex me. One is at the bottom of my sheet, a remailing service, confidential, reliable, 25 cents monthly, $2.50. What is a confidential remailing service?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. I will have to yield to Mrs. Foxworthy for enlightenment on that.

Mrs. FoxWORTHY. I don't know what issue you have. I think that ran one time and I will have to say that I really don't know what it is either. I would have to ask my advertising people.

Mr. BIESTER. And second, the self-hypnosis advertising, learn by tape, price $50. What is that doing in a gun magazine?

Mrs. FOXWORTHY. Well, you will have to understand something about being a target shooter. This game takes a tremendous amount of mental concentration. In the last few years there have been several people, a man who is advertising there happens to be a veterinarian,

not an M.D., who has done a lot of research into work on hypnosis on actual concentration to clear your mind of all other thoughts and if you ever talk to a target shooter at all this is actually one of the most important things is not to think about anything else but that target coming out of the trap and this is what he has been experimenting with and he has a tape recorded course on concentration.

Mr. BIESTER. Thank you. One other thing on juveniles. Would it be possible for the young person, 13, 14, 15 years of age, to keep his gun at the club itself and have the gun kept where he does most of his practicing? Would that be a feasible alternative?

Mr. MCCRACKEN. By and large that occurs. Most of your gun clubs provide lockers. Of course, I will say the majority of times they are locked up in gun cabinets at the home but those that more frequently engage in the sport try to secure gun lockers at their clubs where they are locked up all the time.

Mr. BIESTER. I recently visited a club and they had excellent facilities in that respect and I think it might be one way to handle that problem.

I have no further questions.

Chairman CELLER. Thank you very much, Mr. McCracken.

(Mr. McCracken's prepared statement follows:)

STATEMENT OF JOE H. MCCRACKEN III, DALLAS, TEX., REPRESENTING THE NATIONAL SKEET SHOOTING ASSOCIATION, THE AMATEUR TRAPSHOOTING ASSOCIATION OF THE UNITED STATES, TEXAS SKEET SHOOTERS ASSOCIATION, DALLAS WOODS & WATERS CLUB, AND DALLAS GUN CLUB

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee:

May I express to you my appreciation for the privilege of being heard in connection with HR5384. I reside at 4401 Highland Drive, Dallas, Texas, and am a practicing Attorney at Law.

I am here principally in representation of the National Skeet Shooting Association and the Amateur Trapshooting Association of the United States by designation of their Presidents. These organizations have approximately 50.000 members at this time, in all fifty states, Canada, and in our Armed Services in Europe and Asia. They are the parent organizations of the skeet and trapshooting world. They have affiliated with them almost 600 NSSA Clubs and 730 ATA Clubs in all fifty states, Canada, and overseas with a combined membership of approximately 150,000. A directory of the NSSA Clubs is attached to the original of this statement for inspection by the Committee. I am also officially designated to represent the Texas Skeet Shooters Association, made up of approximately 1,200 members with over 40 affiliated gun clubs; the Dallas Woods & Waters Club composed of over 1,400 hunting and fishing enthusiasts, and I am also here in representation of my local club, the Dallas Gun Club, of approximately 450 members.

These parent organizations sponsored and recorded almost 2,300 registered skeet shoots and 3,300 registered trap shoots in the year 1966, and I am happy to add that the registered tournaments set so far this year gives expectation that the number of tournaments in 1967 will far exceed 1966. The majority of the serious tournament shooters travel as far as 3,000 miles across the United States for major tournaments, and, if my personal experience as a competitive shooter is any indication of the facts, I would judge that from one-half to three-fourths of the membership of the organizations shoot in tournaments in states surrounding their home states. From these impressions, the Committee should glean the fact that there is considerable travel by inestimable thousands of member shooters throughout the states during the course of a year, wherein their highly-prized tournament guns in four gauges are carried either by automobile, train, or airplane, both public and private. These facts should give you gentlemen some conception of the tremendous activity of the shooting public and the popularity of the shooting sports.

The N.S.S.A. and A.T.A. publish monthly magazines, The Skeet Shooting Review and Trap and Field, which average approximately fifty pages in length.

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